Bumps vs. POW

[jack97]

I disagree, athleticism has too loose of a definition to pigeon hole one discipline of skiing over another as requiring greater athletic ability. Furthermore, I've known plenty of GREAT skiers in my life who excel in all conditions, but wouldn't fall under traditional definitions of athletes. I consider myself an advanced skier, but I'm hardly an athlete. I can't run or jump a lick, I'm not very strong, I throw like a girl, have a substantial beer gut :lol: etc, etc.

In terms of just making the turns....the skills for proper bumping tech is harder to obtain; balance, muscle motor and timing has to be in sink to excute the tech. Also you need a certain amount of endurance to complete a run. When the bumps in sunapee are formed you always see skiers taking breaks in the 1/2 to 1/3 section in these runs. Me, I can make one complete run from top to bottom on liftline, a couple of runs like that and I'm toast for the day.

 

[tjf67]

In terms of just making the turns....the skills for proper bumping tech is harder to obtain; balance, muscle motor and timing has to be in sink to excute the tech. Also you need a certain amount of endurance to complete a run. When the bumps in sunapee are formed you always see skiers taking breaks in the 1/2 to 1/3 section in these runs. Me, I can make one complete run from top to bottom on liftline, a couple of runs like that and I'm toast for the day.

If you were to make that many turns on a groomer you would be tuckered as well. As a matter of fact you can lean against the bumps to relax a little when you are going down a well formed line.

 

[JD]

Greg good vids, but I have to say that even the pros were not carving anything. They are very obviously slipping down the back side of the bumps in a skid, smear, whatever you want to call it to control speed. When I think carve, I think of watching a DH or GS run where they ride their ski like a rail. When they skid, snow flies up and the announcer ussually says, "There was a mistake, they lost speed there.."
Maybe this is the difference between a mogul carve and an alpine carve. For skiing pow, an alpine style carve is for real, a skidded turn is faking it and will only work in very light snow that allows you to muscle the ski. As the snow gets deeper or heavier, this technique will end up putting you on your tails, and if you're in them, into a tree.
Very impressive stuff though!

 

[JD]

I know of two and I will say one day I did need a wide ski and this was the time of straight skis so I was on 201 cm ski. I was catskiing at ski cooper and it was heavy wet snow and sun baked.

I have skied many powder days out west epic days 36" plus and the widest ski I skied on was 80mm, can you say snorkel.

Sorry I read this a 4 this morning and read it to say you thought you may have needed fat skiis on 2 days, and the fattest ski you've skiied was a mid fat.
So you have very little experince on fat skis in pow. 1 day. Keep doind what you're doing, but I still don't really think after skiing 1 day in good snow of fat skis you can pass judgement....I've spent considerable time on both and know how I feel about it. PS...what kind of boards were they? There we're many fatties BITD.

 

[SkiDork]

JD - the one thing about carving with todays skis? Its pretty much a no brainer. Its very easy to learn how to carve well. Heck, people have complimented me on my carving ability and I'm nowhere near racer caiber.

Now, in the old days with straight stix, THAT took some skill that mere mortals didn't possess.

 

[Greg]

Greg good vids, but I have to say that even the pros were not carving anything. They are very obviously slipping down the back side of the bumps in a skid, smear, whatever you want to call it to control speed. When I think carve, I think of watching a DH or GS run where they ride their ski like a rail. When they skid, snow flies up and the announcer ussually says, "There was a mistake, they lost speed there.."
Maybe this is the difference between a mogul carve and an alpine carve. For skiing pow, an alpine style carve is for real, a skidded turn is faking it and will only work in very light snow that allows you to muscle the ski. As the snow gets deeper or heavier, this technique will end up putting you on your tails, and if you're in them, into a tree.
Very impressive stuff though!

Yeah, but you're hung up on this whole carve thing. Probably part of the appeal of carving and skiing powder is the G force and sense of weightlessness you feel as you reach the apex (not sure if that's the right word) of a turn and you begin to initiate the next turn. It's a great feeling and one that most of us clearly remember the first time we felt it as we broke through the intermediate plateau and starting linking cleaner turns on the groomers.

The concept of absorption and extension provides a similar feeling, yet it's a totally different movement. With enough practice it eventually "clicks" and that's one of the main causes of the bump addiction; at least it was for me. You then begin to crave that feeling over and over since early on it can be pretty rare. But over time, you'll eventually get it and there's no other feeling like absolutely killing it on a bump run. It keeps me coming back as much as powder does for some. After 4 years of practice, I'm only just starting to be "on" more than not, and usually only on lower angle to moderately pitched bump runs. I'm slowly getting better on steeper bumps.

Anyway, that's why I love skiing bumps. It's as much a mental challenge as it is a physical one with a whole bunch of "ah ha" moments along the way. Find a crew of bumpers and spend some time with them in the mogul fields this spring. It will make you a better skier in and out of the bumps. It takes a lot of time and dedication though but once a few of the basics click, you'll probably keep coming back.

 

[sLoPeS]

They are very obviously slipping down the back side of the bumps in a skid, smear, whatever you want to call it to control speed.

great thread btw......

my take on bump skiing....pro's and really good bump skiers do not "slip down the backside" of a zipper line. a good bump skier told me once to skip the first 4 moguls, pretty much straight line um, and then that will carry your speed into the rest of the line. this gets you up and you are like floating halfway up on the moguls, not skiing in the trough/trench ever. put a pro on top of a steep staircase bump line and watch......they SMACK the backside of the mogul, you can hear it. heres the Hammer rippin lower S....

i cant get the video embed.........heres the link: http://www.skitheeast.net/uploaded_media/video/995031028/default/0/0

to me, thats shreddin bumps

 

[JD]

I agree. It takes good basic tech to carve a straighter ski, but it can be done. I used to alpine on cold smokes as my main boards. Very stiff, wood core pow ski from BITD. 110mm waiste and not parabolic. If the cord was soft, I could carve the crap out of it, and get WAY over cause it was so wide you wouldn't boot out. F U N. LONG raidus turns. On my Axiomes (20 years old), also not parabolic, I have a harder time cause I'm on a 2 buckle tele boot and am not nearly as good a skier as I am (was) and alpine skiier, but those could carve the crap outta the cord too. I love long turns as opposed to the short radius turns most "shape" skis are designed for.

As far as the carve thing goes, it's the root of my whole assumption. I feel like good skiers ride their edge, or at least can ride their edge w/o skidding the turn, while most people who plateau at intermediate never make it past swishing their tails back and forth in a skidding motion. Skiing deep snow makes it impossible to swish, or skid, and your turn has to be initiated from driving the tip and flexing the ski. Yes, people do back seat pow and get away with it, but once the snow get deep or dense enough, like what you hiked for this fall, that technique will stop working and put you in the backseat....so that is what I meant by skiing pow will make you a better skier. It teaches you how to properly steer your ski, from the front of the boot. And now I understand that a good bump skier also intiates a turn with the front of their ski, but that being said, the pros in the video are side slipping the backs of the bumps....it's not carving, it's skidding...but it looks wicked hard, and fun if the bumps are soft and that's all you got, i.e. Southern NE ski areas as you all pointed out...the use of the word carve was confusing me, but a mogul carve is a short radius skid as opposed to the sideways slide and Bang into the next bump type of mogul turn....Yes?

I agree with you all that they are very different and maybe don't connect to eachother as much as I thought.

 

[catsup948]

Skiing both powder and bumps will greatly improve technique. Steep trees are another excellent test of your abilities. They often combine powder skiing or here in the east bump skiing as well. Plus the added challenge of skiing around trees rather than through them(not ideal!).

I remember reading a Skiing Magazine article where Glen Plake explained that when skiing in both the bumps and trees it is absolutely key to keep your head up. Look several yards ahead of you, plan your route and keep turning. Never stop until you get back on the lift!

 

[Creakyknees]

Very few will acheive that level. I certainly won't. As far as AZers I've skied with, the top two bumpers in my mind are 180 and powbmps:

Greg, absolutely agree, 1080 is one of the best bump skiers at Hunter; smooth and fast...........

 

[JD]

this is what I mean when I say carve. I would rather do this on blues all day on alpine skis them bump all day. Skip to 4:30. At the very end, he starts to skid the end of the turn a bit to keep his speed down...This is not what you guys are talking about when you say you carve a bump right? Or is it. I have yet to see anyone employ this technique in bumps in any video I have seen....NOT THAT THEY HAVE NOT BEEN VERY IMPRESSIVE. Those folks obviously are sick sick skiers...

 

[2knees]

great thread btw......

my take on bump skiing....pro's and really good bump skiers do not "slip down the backside" of a zipper line. a good bump skier told me once to skip the first 4 moguls, pretty much straight line um, and then that will carry your speed into the rest of the line. this gets you up and you are like floating halfway up on the moguls, not skiing in the trough/trench ever. put a pro on top of a steep staircase bump line and watch......they SMACK the backside of the mogul, you can hear it. heres the Hammer rippin lower S....

i cant get the video embed.........heres the link: http://www.skitheeast.net/uploaded_media/video/995031028/default/0/0

to me, thats shreddin bumps

i agree, and deadhead mentioned it earlier, that this style is more fun to watch. as far as world cup level bump skiing, they actually have gone away from that form. constant contact is desired regardless of shape or size of the bumps. however, most of us who grew up skiing moguls emulated the style you mention and therefor its what we know.

 

[jack97]

If you were to make that many turns on a groomer you would be tuckered as well.

Agreed, in the bumps (and in narrow steeps), you have no choice but to make these turns. On a wide open groomer, one can stack the skeleton structure to get the ski locked and loaded.

Also, throw in absorption and extension to these types of short radius turns and the quads will burn out quick..... the technique is not suited to the "average" skier. A certain amount of fitness and skill is needed.

I'm not sayin this a good thing or a bad thing....it is what it is.

 

[jaywbigred]

I disagree, athleticism has too loose of a definition to pigeon hole one discipline of skiing over another as requiring greater athletic ability. Furthermore, I've known plenty of GREAT skiers in my life who excel in all conditions, but wouldn't fall under traditional definitions of athletes. I consider myself an advanced skier, but I'm hardly an athlete. I can't run or jump a lick, I'm not very strong, I throw like a girl, have a substantial beer gut :lol: etc, etc.

I don't think athleticism has that loose a definition...it is the combination of quickness, agility, strength and coordination. I think most casual sports fans can identify it. Certain positions in certain sports require more of it than others. An Offensive lineman does not require the same degree of athleticism as a wide receiver. A shortstop is likely to have more of it than a first baseman. The overall trend in all sports over the last 20 years has placed an increasing premium on athleticism at all positions in all sports, however, and so the gaps are lessening between e.g. a hockey defenseman and right wing...

And, at the recreational level, I really believe that skiing bumps places a much higher premium on athleticism than carving or open bowl powder skiing.

I have no problem pigeon holing the disciplines any more than I have a problem pigeon holing shortstops as generally more athletic than first baseman...

Also, saying that "I've known plenty of GREAT skiers in my life who excel in all conditions, but wouldn't fall under traditional definitions of athletes" is like saying "I've known plenty of people who have eaten a ton of fried food and who have not had heart attacks or developed heart disease." Though I have no doubt that you are right, citing examples from your personal experience that rebut an over-arching trend doesn't negate the trend completely.

In other words, there are certainly un-athletic skiers who achieve advanced or expert status, but I'd bet that more often you'd find that advanced/expert skiers are pretty athletic people generally, and chief among them, imho, (at the recreational level, again) would be the bumpers...just my 2 cents.

 

[Greg]

Greg, absolutely agree, 1080 is one of the best bump skiers at Hunter; smooth and fast...........

Yep. Alan is a great skier, and a super nice guy. Totally humble and not pretentious at all. There's another guy on the Hunter ski patrol, Dave something or other, that also rips like nobody's business. Hunter takes a lot of crap, but there is no doubt that the regulars there are an elite group of skiers.

 

[2knees]

Yep. Alan is a great skier, and a super nice guy. Totally humble and not pretentious at all.

Just ask him out already!


i owe'd you one.

 

[2knees]

In other words, there are certainly un-athletic skiers who achieve advanced or expert status, but I'd bet that more often you'd find that advanced/expert skiers are pretty athletic people generally, and chief among them, imho, (at the recreational level, again) would be the bumpers...just my 2 cents.

it would be interesting to do a general poll of this forum as to how people consider their overall athletic ability and their skiing level, specifically bumps. It would require honesty on the part of the individual, which is not always the case, i think, on the intrawebs. where everyone is a combination of A-Rod, Ladanian Tomilinson and Johnny Mosely. :wink:

 

[Greg]

As far as the carve thing goes, it's the root of my whole assumption. I feel like good skiers ride their edge, or at least can ride their edge w/o skidding the turn, while most people who plateau at intermediate never make it past swishing their tails back and forth in a skidding motion. Skiing deep snow makes it impossible to swish, or skid, and your turn has to be initiated from driving the tip and flexing the ski. Yes, people do back seat pow and get away with it, but once the snow get deep or dense enough, like what you hiked for this fall, that technique will stop working and put you in the backseat....so that is what I meant by skiing pow will make you a better skier. It teaches you how to properly steer your ski, from the front of the boot. And now I understand that a good bump skier also intiates a turn with the front of their ski, but that being said, the pros in the video are side slipping the backs of the bumps....it's not carving, it's skidding...but it looks wicked hard, and fun if the bumps are soft and that's all you got, i.e. Southern NE ski areas as you all pointed out...the use of the word carve was confusing me, but a mogul carve is a short radius skid as opposed to the sideways slide and Bang into the next bump type of mogul turn....Yes?

Pretty much. There are some subtle edge sets when skiing bumps, but there is a fair amount of skidding too. That's what a rotary turn is, a flat ski technique. What's interesting about bumps is that unlike carving, speed control is not acheived solely by a turn. A&E is equally if not more important. It's a pretty unintuitive concept really, at least it was for me early on. Absorption always made perfect sense to me, i.e. to reduce the impact of hitting the face of a bump at speed. Extension and maintaining snow contact was the part I always struggled with (still do sometimes). It took a while for me to realize that driving your skis down the backside of the bump helped you slow down. Pushing your skis down immediately made me think "faster". It's all about maintaining contact with the snow as well as getting yourself "tall" again so you're ready to absorb the next bump. The whole process happens a couple times each second; probably more for faster bumpers.

I think the argument from mogul skiers that skiing bumps helps you to become a better skier partly comes from the fact that learning to ski bumps well take a lot of dedication and practice. Perhaps at some level we want to validate all that time we've put into it. Still, being able to react immediately to changes in terrain is a skill that translates to the rest of the mountain. Bump skiing is hard. Skiing groomers just seems easy and sometimes boring and unexciting in comparison even if we don't do it with the skill of a true carver.

 

[Greg]

Just ask him out already!


i owe'd you one.

He's not my type. :razz:

it would be interesting to do a general poll of this forum as to how people consider their overall athletic ability and their skiing level, specifically bumps. It would require honesty on the part of the individual, which is not always the case, i think, on the intrawebs. where everyone is a combination of A-Rod, Ladanian Tomilinson and Johnny Mosely. :wink:

I think this season I'm in pretty good shape. Lots of mountain biking this summer which was more activity than I've done in the off season in many many years. Once I built a bit of wind, I would look forward to big climbs because I knew it was building some stamina and leg strength. The primary reason I started mountain biking was to stay in shape. Luckily it was a fun thing to do or I would have tired of it quickly. I have seen a difference when skiing, not dramatic but some. I was lapping bumps for 6 hours on Sunday. I could never have done that on my second extended ski day in past seasons. I'm very fortunate too in that I have a naturally high metabolism. Battling excess weight is never an issue for me, and I can usually maintain a high energy level most of the day.

As far as skiing ability, overall I'd call myself an advanced skier. I do okay in bumps. Still a long way to go to get to where I want to be. Not really even sure what that is. I guess an all around very good recreational skier. I think I do pretty good on mellow to moderately pitched bumps, but still flail on steeper bumps. I hope to ski and progress a lot this year and having a practice area at Sundown right in my backyard should help.

 

[deadheadskier]

And, at the recreational level, I really believe that skiing bumps places a much higher premium on athleticism than carving or open bowl powder skiing.

I have no problem pigeon holing the disciplines any more than I have a problem pigeon holing shortstops as generally more athletic than first baseman...

Also, saying that "I've known plenty of GREAT skiers in my life who excel in all conditions, but wouldn't fall under traditional definitions of athletes" is like saying "I've known plenty of people who have eaten a ton of fried food and who have not had heart attacks or developed heart disease." Though I have no doubt that you are right, citing examples from your personal experience that rebut an over-arching trend doesn't negate the trend completely.

In other words, there are certainly un-athletic skiers who achieve advanced or expert status, but I'd bet that more often you'd find that advanced/expert skiers are pretty athletic people generally, and chief among them, imho, (at the recreational level, again) would be the bumpers...just my 2 cents.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think bumpers are more athletic than people who are better skilled in other areas. To be a good bumper, you have to ski bumps A LOT. The same goes for carving/racing and the same goes for powder. It's that simple. I don't think athleticism translates in skiing like it does in other sports.The best bump skier in my high school wouldn't have even rated in the top 50% of athletes in the school. Conversely, there were kids who were incredible basketball or football players who skied there whole lives and weren't very good.