How to get better at skiing if you're already pretty good??

[drjeff]

I'd be careful with that old saw. I make it my day's mission not to fall. Falling while skiing can be dangerous for your health and skiing habit. :lol: Yeah yeah, I know there is "the correct way to fall" and all that crap, and you can get hurt without even falling, been there done that...

Totally agree with that! Sometimes falls just happen (even sometimes on totally flat terrain like say as one is slowing down to enter a lift queue :dunce: :lol: ), but the majority of the time the old addage if you don't fall you're not learning is a big misnomer.

If you're pushing yourself, then chances are you're also thinking more about the terrain and technique at that moment. I know myself when I get into situations where I'm really pushing myself (usually steeper, tight trees in soft/variable snow conditions), as i'm working on my comfort level my brain initially is focusing on not falling and just letting my skiing (often a bit cautiously at that moment) happen. As my comfort level, very often based on knowledge of the slope ahead of me goes up, then my speed comes up and I would presume if I saw video of me making my "1st descent" through that area vs. after i've become familiar with the terrain on later passes, that my tecnhique appears better too.

Knowledge of the slope, as has been mentioned in this thread already IS a key factor that does allow one to perform at their maximum ability. There is a reason why you see everyone from racers doing pre race course inspections (and in some disciplines even training runs) to park skiers + riders pre-inspecting their jump/box/rail lines to even big mountain skiers checking out their planned routes either on the copter ride up or the hike up or even sometimes via photos of the area before they ski/ride it. Really charging a slope without any knowledge of it DOES play a big roll in limiting one's ability to perform at their best

 

[Cheese]

yeah, ok........ let's call that a 'virtual fall'.

That's a great term right there! I mean most advanced skier spend a good deal of time either at speeds or on terrain where falling is not an option so bailing and recovering is almost a reflex. On the other hand, they know enough about skiing and what was supposed to happen to realize they blew it and might as well call it a 'virtual fall".

 

[kingdom-tele]

for those interested, its a little heavy in spots, but the late Marc Jeannerod wrote a great book about this, Motor Cognition. Another phenomenal aspect to our central nervous system. he was able to show that the brain and nerve conduction is exactly the same for those visualizing and those actually performing the motor act, the key difference was the motor nerve were conducting just under the level that makes the muscle actually contract, essentially you can perform the run and make adjustments to your motor choices, by the same reasoning we have a number of automatic movements, the visualization wires the new pathway so it is faster when the action takes place.

as I said before, its great, but the feedback we get from the musculoskeletal system enhances that nerve wiring to a greater degree.

still pretty amazing stuff

 

[drjeff]

That's a great term right there! I mean most advanced skier spend a good deal of time either at speeds or on terrain where falling is not an option so bailing and recovering is almost a reflex. On the other hand, they know enough about skiing and what was supposed to happen to realize they blew it and might as well call it a 'virtual fall".

As one of my ski instructor friends likes to say: (paraphrasing here) The skid of shame is a far better option than the fall of death!

 

[SIKSKIER]

I never bought into the "you don't learn unless you fall" scheme.My girlfriend is the perfect example.She had progressed pretty steadily until 2 years ago she she took a pretty good digger.She has absolutely gone backwards from the fear and seems to be regressing no matter how I try to reassure her.

 

[Nick]

^That's a tough situation. I could see my wife being afraid as well. Did your girlfriend hurt herself when she fell?

 

[mister moose]

Lastly, how many times a day do you fall? Not falling = not learning. Push yourself, with direction, on one aspect, most of the time.

Some can do both. I've been in Race Camps with top level Race instructors that also earn a living doing the run of the mill PSIA stuff, so you can't pigeon hole a PSIA person. Agree, I was making a generalization. There are always exceptions. Don't forget your racer/instructor is still going to teach the PSIA curriculum while wearing the parka. (Although I've seen exceptions to that as well!) This gets to the topic of an advanced skier taking a lesson and being disappointed. He never takes another lesson, usually because of the cost/benefit. There are average teachers, and there are great teachers. And my great teacher might not click with you. You need a lot of exposure to progress significantly. This is why I really like to reccommend the weekend clinics like a mogul camp. You get instruction from a number of instructors over a long period of time for a reasonable price. Or Killington has an every Saturday for the season program. (Any other resorts do this?)

Of course you need skis in tune and that includes your edges; however carving on ice can elude even the most well equipped skier.

Here is perfect example of were "lessons" would help. If you can carve on soft or edgeable snow, but fail on real Vermont Blue Race course ice; I'd be willing to bet that you could practice on your own for years without seeing much improvement. There are subtle movement changes needed to carve ice over carving something more easily edgeable. ( of course you could probably self educate yourself through reading about it, watching video instruction and taking it the time on the hill to work on it ). However the right coach can get you there quicker.

You're saying even with the best equipment you still need the skill to do it well. Of course. But carving on icy hardpack isn't going to happen with equipment that isn't up to the task. Some skis have edges in poor enough shape that no tune will bring them back. Some skis will never carve ice the first day out of the box.


I'd be careful with that old saw. I make it my day's mission not to fall. Falling while skiing can be dangerous for your health and skiing habit. :lol: Yeah yeah, I know there is "the correct way to fall" and all that crap, and you can get hurt without even falling, been there done that...

I never bought into the "you don't learn unless you fall" scheme.My girlfriend is the perfect example.She had progressed pretty steadily until 2 years ago she she took a pretty good digger.She has absolutely gone backwards from the fear and seems to be regressing no matter how I try to reassure her.

OK, I'm taking a lot of heat on the learn/fall thing. I worded it poorly. Of course you can learn without falling. Of course you can get hurt falling. Of course it's a terrible thing when someone loses confidence and withdraws from the sport, or regresses due to a hard fall. Of course you fall sometimes for some stupid unknown reason and you weren't even pushing yourself. Of course there is terrain where you don't want to fall due to the risk - you don't try new stuff here.

I've had my share of scary falls and injuries. Wasn't happy about them.

My point is this:


I have skied with some folks that are proud they don't ever fall. Or see falling as a weakness. I don't buy into that.

There is a rate of learning at which you don't tend to fall. There is a higher rate of learning at which you tend to fall more. You might choose the former, but don't tell me the latter doesn't exist.


If you are drilling on some new technique you should be trying it on decent conditions in a safe area. It is these conditions where I am willing to mash down the gas pedal and try it. The first time you try something it is going to feel weird. Your balance will be off. You will be in unfamiliar territory. You will make mistakes. You are more likely to fall, and eventually you do. If you ski so guardedly that you never allow this to happen, you limit the rate at which you learn. If you want to overcome a favorite/dominant leg, if you want to get rid of a persistant stem, if you want to learn how to jump turn, if you want to experience more than 1G in a turn, if you want to get out of a chronic back seat, you need to be willing to fall, and you need to get out of your comfort zone (a little at a time).

If you're talking about tweaking, like adjusting hand position, stance width, changing the timing slightly, or choosing a slightly different line than usual, then sure, you're not likely to fall drilling on that. But if you're talking about a jump turn, landing on a firm edge set and holding on to that new direction once you land, at some point you have to jump. There is no gentle transition. You obviously would start on a moderate pitch with a small turn, but you still have to jump. If your stance isn't right when you land, or aim poorly, you eat it. I tip my hat to the skier that can pass those kinds of breakthroughs and not ever fall.

 

[bdfreetuna]

Last time I fell (and I don't really consider getting stuck in deep snow in the woods and accidentally sitting down on the slope a fall).. I mean skiing fast and wiping out unexpectedly, I dislocated my left shoulder.

Last year I was skiing fast and with a lot of confidence and good form doing it. After that happened, when I could ski again after a few weeks, I could still feel the pain up to a few months later so it was a constant reminder. Once I was in the steeps and woods especially in spring time corn snow I was back in my zone, but I lost confidence in myself at speed on hardpack.

Started this year early, skiing in November and it was all hardpack and I realized fear was holding me back. There were occasions when I'd be carving pretty well and gaining speed... up to a certain speed when the fear sort of hit me and I'd skid to a stop.

So there's that mental game. Whenever I feel my skis leave the ground at speed I get a feeling like I am swallowing my stomach now. Because that's sort of how I wiped out last season.

I have no problem with my skis leaving the ground in bumps or jump turn steeps, but I know the worst that will happen if something goes wrong there is I will slide down a few moguls. It's not really a situation that could easily injure somebody.

This thread is turning out great.. I thought there would be some good advice here but the fountain is overflowing!

 

[MadMadWorld]

A few more points to the lesson vs. observation debate.....

An instructor at the highest levels should understand the importance of active learning. It's much more important to understand the "why" and not just the "how". It is better to have a skier challenge themselves and then have them understand what they are feeling (physically/mentally) and how that effects the way they ski that type of terrain. The best clinic I had was with another instructor who really understood how to teach moguls. We would break down the run into sections and had me ski each section differently (over the top, ruts, etc.) and then we talked about how it felt. He never pushed one technique on me and allowed me really to do what felt most natural for me.

 

[riverc0il]

I never bought into the "you don't learn unless you fall" scheme.My girlfriend is the perfect example.She had progressed pretty steadily until 2 years ago she she took a pretty good digger.She has absolutely gone backwards from the fear and seems to be regressing no matter how I try to reassure her.

The catch with saying that you aren't getting better if you don't fall is that means that no one that values their life can ever progress to the point of skiing true "no fall" skiing. I've had a few moments in which a "learning experience" by falling could have been quite unpleasant.

I think the point of that old saw is that you need to push yourself and you shouldn't feel bad about a fall as long as you learned something from it. For example, someone skiing with their weight in the back seat that then throws their weight forward and goes for a tumble did good to cause a fall because they learned just how far forward they can push before their unbalanced OR they learn they need to compensate in different ways when unbalanced with that forward position.

If you don't fall all day, it doesn't mean you didn't improve. And if you fall a lot, that also doesn't mean you learned a lot. Learning is taking something away from a fall by realizing what caused it.

KT has some really good food for thought in slowing things down so you can be cognizant of the feelings, pressures, balance, forces, movements, etc. involved in just a simple turn. Awareness is a major key to improvement. I find instruction can be over jargonesque and technical, sometimes I can't even understand what instructors are going for though I might easily perform the movement. Once you are aware, the words are irrelevant because you can self coach.

I think instruction is really important for getting to that point that you can self coach, self correct, and self analyze.

 

[anaisfkyle]

re:

I say get your mogul on. best way to train endurance and skill. some blue diamonds are harder because of the moguls and ice..

 

[Cheese]

OK, I'm taking a lot of heat on the learn/fall thing. I worded it poorly. Of course you can learn without falling. Of course you can get hurt falling. Of course it's a terrible thing when someone loses confidence and withdraws from the sport, or regresses due to a hard fall. Of course you fall sometimes for some stupid unknown reason and you weren't even pushing yourself. Of course there is terrain where you don't want to fall due to the risk - you don't try new stuff here.

I've had my share of scary falls and injuries. Wasn't happy about them.

I've got your back on this one but I'll take it in a different direction. Not only is falling a part of learning while pushing yourself but equally or perhaps even more importantly, you've got to learn how to fall. That's right, you've got to practice hitting the snow and getting back up quickly or at least self arresting. If you're going to be an advanced skier on "no fall" terrain you'd better work on techniques to self arrest with your skis on, skis off, head first, feet first, spinning, etc. Falling while learning is an easy way to get proficient at this. Don't discount the value of falling or that the skills built from falls don't outweigh the danger of never having practiced a self arrest until your life is counting on it.

 

[deadheadskier]

Ski with the AZ Experts

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?117103-Are-you-an-expert-skier

though highwaystar is noticeably missing.......

 

[goldsbar]

I haven't read every post, but anyone who says lessons are a waste of money hasn't had a good lesson. WC racers have coaches to correct their technique, so how a bunch of recreational skiers can say lessons suck is beyond me. Skiing with people better than you down the gnarliest stuff possible will often prevent you from progressing. You need to be confident to focus on technique - it's not going to happen trying to keep up with your buddy that skis in Warren Miller films.

Go to a place like Jackson Hole and ask for a level 8/9 lesson assuming you're really at this level. It's still a roll of the dice and it costs a lot (go for the group lessons as this level is never crowded), but you'll likely get a instructor that knows their stuff and is a better skier than you - they really don't have to be, though. If you're at a high level, you're probably just doing little things wrong. A good instructor will pick these out in three turns. They'll also focus on tactics, not just technique. Tactics are really important at high level skiing and can teach you to make a hard run easy.

No one can figure this out by an internet post. Most advice, while well meaning, is often easy to misinterpret (e.g. leaning forward to get your weight forward which actually puts you're weight back).

Reading never hurts and will get you into the instructors mindset. Ultimate Skiing is my current favorite. Finally, if you do know what you're doing wrong, epicski.com has a lot of instructors posting.

 

[dmc]

Some people need to first teach themselves how to learn before they can learn from others.

 

[kingslug]

I haven't read every post, but anyone who says lessons are a waste of money hasn't had a good lesson. WC racers have coaches to correct their technique, so how a bunch of recreational skiers can say lessons suck is beyond me. Skiing with people better than you down the gnarliest stuff possible will often prevent you from progressing. You need to be confident to focus on technique - it's not going to happen trying to keep up with your buddy that skis in Warren Miller films.

Go to a place like Jackson Hole and ask for a level 8/9 lesson assuming you're really at this level. It's still a roll of the dice and it costs a lot (go for the group lessons as this level is never crowded), but you'll likely get a instructor that knows their stuff and is a better skier than you - they really don't have to be, though. If you're at a high level, you're probably just doing little things wrong. A good instructor will pick these out in three turns. They'll also focus on tactics, not just technique. Tactics are really important at high level skiing and can teach you to make a hard run easy.

No one can figure this out by an internet post. Most advice, while well meaning, is often easy to misinterpret (e.g. leaning forward to get your weight forward which actually puts you're weight back).

And make sure you really are at that level ...8/9 at Jackson is waaaay higher than here..found that out the hard way..but there are some really good instructors out there..just look at what they get to ski all day..
As far as the no falls no balls thing..you HAVE to learn to fall if you are going to survive the progression. I started skiing at 30 and spent the year falling on solid ice at Mountain Creek, even dislocated my shoulder falling pretty much the whole way down Zero G in the rain...the hard part is how do you learn to fall. I learned in Aikido, not sure how most people would learn on the mountain..as falling pretty much sux. I guess when you are starting out you are going to fall all day long, have to figure out the least painfull way at some point. Learning to stop is..pretty important too...Once you have progressed to the point you are skiing no fall zones, the self arrest is...well manditory, not something to try and figure out while its happening. It really comes down to how far you want to push it.

 

[bdfreetuna]

Some people need to first teach themselves how to learn before they can learn from others.

 

[kingdom-tele]

Some people need to first teach themselves how to learn before they can learn from others.

who taught you how to sit up, how to crawl, how to stand, how to walk, etc. We are endowed with the ability, those of us who are at least not having to contend with various system issues that impede that development. For those with kids, watch them, repeat, modify, repeat, modify, repeat, on and on, no judgements, no internal battle, actually intrigued by their movement, by their ability to select different options, enjoying the variety of movements they can choose from.

Learning from others, with regard to movement oriented activity, should leave you with a clearer sense of yourself and the variety of movement options you can select from. I can't speak to ski training, but a large portion of movement education is attempting to construct a series of movements that should somehow be applied to every person. Meanwhile, we all have unique issues that may make attaining those movement goals exceptionally difficult. People struggle for lifetimes trying to adhere to utter nonsense, stand up straight, walk this way, yada yada. I appreciate where the reductionism intends to help, but it is trying to do it at the expense of allowing people to appreciate HOW they move, and then being able to select from a variety of movement choices. Working toward a better usage of themselves

To paraphrase a favorite quote, " Good posture (body orientation) is having the ability to choose a variety of options with the least amount of effort."

The anxiety of a fall, of unfamiliar terrain, of novel slopes, new gear, whatever, create the conflict. The lower motor centers respond, they lock up the spine. we can see it in anyone. the tone skyrockets and you have just lost your ability to make the postural adjustment you need to save your ass. It is quite the paradox.

We can all feel it, ski the bunny slopes, you can feel how many options you can choose from with regard to pelvis, rib, shoulder, foot positions. they are effortless because we don't have to contend with first overriding the muscle tone that is designed to protect you. There is a quality to the movement that is self satisfying. That is what feels so good, not trying to look like anyone else. The truly ironic part, is once we find our optimal orientation it often looks similar to others who have also found their own optimal use, it looks effortless because in fact it is technically using less effort, thus efficient walking, running, skiing, etc. all look the same. If you pick apart the movement though there will be an infinite assortment of body mechanics from expert to expert.

Please don't read that to mean instruction is futile. It is certainly not. There are ways to enhance the use of ourselves. My only contention is that the instruction should enhance your self awareness, not create more conflict. We already know how to learn. We cloud our own judgements to try and satisfy often arbitrary criteria. Movement should be enjoyable.

 

[abc]

It's clear from reading this thread. Those who are self-taught, will continue to self-taught at high level. Those who got to a high level with the help of lessons, will take more advanced level lessons.

 

[kingdom-tele]

because there is nothing wrong with either approach, they both involve modifying established movement patterns and trying new variables, more options = higher motor control. on the other end of the spectrum, there is also little difference between a self taught person reaching a plateau (no variability to your movement) or simply trying to force an instructed body posture into every context. good instruction will get most people to the goal of more efficient movement quicker, but it can also become a major roadblock depending on the paradigm of the instruction. in the same vein, people believing they have attained their ultimate performance stop being interested in trying new things.