Permanent Industry Changes in the Post-COVID World

[drjeff]

I agree on "no good answers". But there're however imperfect yet decent answers.

Reducing contact with KNOWN infected person is one such. Just because we don't know EVERYONE who might be infectious doesn't mean we should look the other way and ignore those who're known to be.

There also comes a point when one has to admit and accept that for the overwhelming majority of society, what COVID is today ISN'T what it was a year or more ago. And arguably for the vast majority of society, Covid was never going to be as dire as the original "out of an abundance of caution" narrative was sold as to us. That is just what the data has shown, especially if one is under 70 and has less than the roughly 5 co-morbidities that most who have passed away due to Covid statistically have. And across all aged demographics, the data shows that if one contracts Covid, they are far more likely to survive than die from it.

Can anyone name or think of someone who wants to be vaccinated yet and hasn't been able to get vaccinated yet (short of maybe a small percentage of people with very speciific health conditions/allergies, who likely pre COVID were already living a very "germ phobic" lifestyle, and still will be living a very germ phobic lifestyle when COVID is accepted as endemic, or the very young, for whom the risks if they contract COVID of anything severe is basically zero)? And regardless of what some wish, it is still peoples own choice to get vaccinated or not.

Especially now with Omicron, the effects if one get it, regardless of if they're vaccinated or not, are almost always mild cold symptoms. Those still getting hospitalized now, and hospitalized FROM Covid, not hospitalized for something else and have Covid as a secondary note, are mainly with Delta.

Heck, you're seeing the media often stop using the former buzz phrase of "break through infections" as a result of Omicron. And even Dr Fauci is acknowledging that we have to start moving on from the number of new cases and look at the hospitalization rates as the primary metric.

It's sad that some people, for whatever reasons they feel are needed, choose to essentially define themsleves still with Covid fear porn virtue signaling, and will attempt to Covid shame those who have made the choice, after almost 2 years, to try and live their lives "normally" again, and are aware of, and comfortable with what that means for their own risks. As one can only control and choose their own risks, and frankly shouldn't be trying to force their own risk comfort levels on others. That would be like one telling the person on the highway next to them that they can't drive 65 beause they, themselves only feel comfortable driving 50.

I figure it's only a matter of time until new shows on various lifestyle networks about those living in Covid fear along the show style like say hoarders, start showing up, and that is such a sad commentary on what this entire pandemic has done to the mental state of some of society as well as the influnece that the mainstream and social media can have over some.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

So a friend of mine has also been pushing this Dr. Malone stuff.. i told him I would look at his site with an open mind, but the challenge is that right out of the gates he is trying to claim singular credit as the original innovator of "mRNA and DNA vaccines" which is just not true. While there may sometimes be a "father/mother of" a particular therapeutic or vaccine modality, in this case if you were to credit anyone with that role it would be the duo of Kariko and Weissman. He absolutely played a role but claiming singular credit like that made me skeptical.

Later on it tries to suggest he invented the platform? But they don't really describe what that means.... I know he was not a seminal researcher on the delivery tech via LNP which was fundamental to establish the platform. A different group of scientist have already won a Nobel prize for that work.

Then I see he consistently calls the Vaccines, "Gene Therapy." Which is absolutely not true and used to purposefully to mislead the public about how the messenger RNA vax actually works in the body. The mRNA vaccines are not gene therapy full stop.

I'm sure none of this change anyone's mind on Malone... but do some research into how actual gene therapy works. Yes gene therapy can be delivered via viral vectors or lipid packages like vaccines, but the mRNA vaccines DO NOT alter your genes or replace a mutated gene with a functional one.

If he is being disingenuous about those things i can't really believe anything he says is credible.

he also got booted from twitter for quackery.

 

[drjeff]

he also got booted from twitter for quackery.

The reality is that getting booted from twitter is about as arbitrary these days as getting booted from Northeast Skiology

 

[abc]

The reality is that getting booted from twitter is about as arbitrary these days as getting booted from Northeast Skiology

I fear Mark Zuckerberg will be offended1

 

[abc]

There also comes a point when one has to admit and accept that for the overwhelming majority of society, what COVID is today ISN'T what it was a year or more ago.

I believe the majority had already accepted that. That's why we're now out and about. I mean legally, not breaking any rules.

There maybe a minority who somehow felt we should still be in lockdown. But then, there're always some minority who felt we should live in color segregated society too. While the media is still giving time/space to the former, but they've also given the latter such a few decades back. Time will change that just as surely as before.

But there's a big difference to those who never believe we should have had a lockdown. They believe now that we're back to normal, that's "proof" the lockdown was unnecessary in the first place and vaccine were never needed anyway, etc....

 

[drjeff]

I believe the majority had already accepted that. That's why we're now out and about. I mean legally, not breaking any rules.

There maybe a minority who somehow felt we should still be in lockdown. But then, there're always some minority who felt we should live in color segregated society too. While the media is still giving time/space to the former, but they've also given the latter such a few decades back. Time will change that just as surely as before.

But there's a big difference to those who never believe we should have had a lockdown. They believe now that we're back to normal, that's "proof" the lockdown was unnecessary in the first place and vaccine were never needed anyway, etc....

When you take a look at not just how different states, but also countries around the world, have handled COVID (locks downs, no lock downs, mask mandates, no mask mandates, vax mandates, no vax mandates, no real widesperad vaxing, use of early treatment therapeutics or not, etc) and see that no one way was significantly better, or worse, than the other, then one has to give some credence to the notion that maybe the severity of the way some handled this crisis wasn't the best way, especially when you factor in some of the economic and psychological hardships some of the more severe approaches have brought to those areas.

once this is all over, the retrospective data analysis of how this was handled is likely to be eye opening for many, and also (unfortunately) result in a bunch of "I told you so" moments as well. In order for society to truly beneft from what that will show, one HAS to put aside the emotional component and look objectively at the data, even if that data shows something their emotions don't want to accept

 

[deadheadskier]

The reality is that getting booted from twitter is about as arbitrary these days as getting booted from Northeast Skiology

Do you think a MD should be referring to MRNA vaccines as Gene Therapy and broadcasting that false statement through multiple media outlets?

What's his motivation for misrepresentation the facts there?

 

[abc]

When you take a look at not just how different states, but also countries around the world, have handled COVID (locks downs, no lock downs, mask mandates, no mask mandates, vax mandates, no vax mandates, no real widesperad vaxing, use of early treatment therapeutics or not, etc) and see that no one way was significantly better, or worse, than the other, then one has to give some credence to the notion that maybe the severity of the way some handled this crisis wasn't the best way, especially when you factor in some of the economic and psychological hardships some of the more severe approaches have brought to those areas.

I beg to differ.

Almost no country choose to have no lock down. Sweden was supposed to be the counter example. But in reality, although there's no official "lockdown", the Swedes were acting as though there was. The population were social distancing for the most part. Still, their death rate were somewhat higher than their Nordic neighbors who implemented official lockdown.

The other end of the spectrum, countries that adapted official lockdown, many are often time the countries that the population refused voluntary social distancing advises, Italy is a not so shining example.

I would argue, the world had all gone through some form of lockdown, only some countries to more strict ones than others.

We'll find out, in a few years time, more rigorous analysis of data that would shine some light on the effects, by take into account of population demographic, social behavior and actual implementation of policies.

 

[drjeff]

Do you think a MD should be referring to MRNA vaccines as Gene Therapy and broadcasting that false statement through multiple media outlets?

What's his motivation for misrepresentation the facts there?

Given that Dr Malone has, or is a part of, something like 8 or 9 patents on various mRNA related items, I am guessing that he knows way more about it, and how it's being presented, than any of us posting here do. Regardless of if he gave the impression that he was the solo inventor of the technology. Likely way more truths than exaggerations or false statements in his Rogan interview

I am pretty sure that the folks trying to discredit him have partaken in some media sources that haven't been fully accurate with how they have presented stories that often create an emotional reaction to them

 

[abc]

Given that Dr Malone has, or is a part of, something like 8 or 9 patents on various mRNA related items, I am guessing that he knows way more about it, and how it's being presented, than any of us posting here do.

The point being, he may know what it really is. But he may be purposely distorting the truth. Not out of ignorance but malice.

Given the other non-scientific falsehood he perpetrate, that suspicion has some foundation.

(I'm not passing judgement on any of his statement regarding the vaccine. I refuse to waste my time to listen to someone who clearly telling "some" lies that can be easily verified.)

 

[SnowRock]

Given that Dr Malone has, or is a part of, something like 8 or 9 patents on various mRNA related items, I am guessing that he knows way more about it, and how it's being presented, than any of us posting here do. Regardless of if he gave the impression that he was the solo inventor of the technology. Likely way more truths than exaggerations or false statements in his Rogan interview

I am pretty sure that the folks trying to discredit him have partaken in some media sources that haven't been fully accurate with how they have presented stories that often create an emotional reaction to them

But he quite literally states that he is "the original inventor of mRNA and DNA vaccines" on his own website... where he also goes on to call the mRNA vaccines gene therapies. Uses those exact words.

Calling the mRNA vaccines gene therapy is naïve at best and purposefully malicious at worst. Yes, they use genetic material to elucidate the immune response, but they are not "gene therapies," as they don't alter our genetic makeup. This isn't a matter of which media source one reads. The goal of gene therapy or gene editing is to fix the defective gene. mRNA vaccines do nothing to change the genetic information of our cells... so why use that term? Obviously Malone understands that very important distinction, so I can only view it as a dog whistle for the anti-vax crowd.

 

[johnl87]

But he quite literally states that he is "the original inventor of mRNA and DNA vaccines" on his own website... where he also goes on to call the mRNA vaccines gene therapies. Uses those exact words.

Calling the mRNA vaccines gene therapy is naïve at best and purposefully malicious at worst. Yes, they use genetic material to elucidate the immune response, but they are not "gene therapies," as they don't alter our genetic makeup. This isn't a matter of which media source one reads. The goal of gene therapy or gene editing is to fix the defective gene. mRNA vaccines do nothing to change the genetic information of our cells... so why use that term? Obviously Malone understands that very important distinction, so I can only view it as a dog whistle for the anti-vax crowd.

funny that you're splitting hairs like that over definitions when the cdc literally changed the definition of vaccine a few months ago to make these mrna jabs "vaccines."

 

[SnowRock]

funny that you're splitting hairs like that over definitions when the cdc literally changed the definition of vaccine a few months ago to make these mrna jabs "vaccines."

what am i splitting hairs over? are vaccines therapeutics? and more specifically are mrna vaccines gene therapies? words do matter.

And these mRNA jabs were always vaccines.. the change CDC made does more accurately reflect the fact that no vaccines are 100% effective. Have the flu vaccines always secretly not been vaccines because they aren't close to 100% effective? Do you think every other vaccine we have introduced throughout the years is 100% effective? How about a new one like shingrix... 90% and also wanes after 4 years or so. Was that not a vaccine then?

 

[cdskier]

funny that you're splitting hairs like that over definitions when the cdc literally changed the definition of vaccine a few months ago to make these mrna jabs "vaccines."

Keep thinking that has any relevance if you want. The "updated" CDC definition of vaccine much more correctly aligns with the scientific reality of how vaccines in general work (not just the covid ones).

If you want to be technical and go back to the original definition of vaccine, it means something that came from a cow (because it originally referred to the usage of fluid from cowpox pustules to help prevent smallpox). Definitions changing over time is nothing new. Although I guess in your fantasy land, realistically none of our vaccines today are really "vaccines" because they don't come from a cow...

 

[johnl87]

what am i splitting hairs over? are vaccines therapeutics? and more specifically are mrna vaccines gene therapies? words do matter.

And these mRNA jabs were always vaccines.. the change CDC made does more accurately reflect the fact that no vaccines are 100% effective. Have the flu vaccines always secretly not been vaccines because they aren't close to 100% effective? Do you think every other vaccine we have introduced throughout the years is 100% effective? How about a new one like shingrix... 90% and also wanes after 4 years or so. Was that not a vaccine then?

imagine if we had as many breakthrough polio, mumps, and measles cases today as we have of covid-19 breakthrough cases?
they originally told us the covid-19 vaccines would stop infection and transmission. heck, i still remember when the j&j was a miracle drug - one jab and you're done. i'm so glad we can trust big pharma and politicians.

 

[2Planker]

30 years ago we were very thankful for the brand new recombinant DNA vaccines, such as EngerixB for Hepatitis.
You don't really want to know where the Vaccines came from Pre 1980's...
mRNA technology is the new & improved version....

 

[cdskier]

imagine if we had as many breakthrough polio, mumps, and measles cases today as we have of covid-19 breakthrough cases?
they originally told us the covid-19 vaccines would stop infection and transmission. heck, i still remember when the j&j was a miracle drug - one jab and you're done. i'm so glad we can trust big pharma and politicians.

And imagine if polio, mumps, and measles mutated as quickly as COVID-19 does...

And J&J's effectiveness right off the bat was stated as being lower than the mRNA ones based on clinical trial data at the time it was given EUA status, so I don't know what you're remembering...

 

[SnowRock]

imagine if we had as many breakthrough polio, mumps, and measles cases today as we have of covid-19 breakthrough cases?
they originally told us the covid-19 vaccines would stop infection and transmission. heck, i still remember when the j&j was a miracle drug - one jab and you're done. i'm so glad we can trust big pharma and politicians.

Lets set aside the significant differences between the viruses themselves... and what may actually be realistically achievable when it comes to vaccination against a coronavirus that will seemingly forever have a reservoir for mutation in humans.

It took us like 70 years to eradicate polio. You'd probably be posting that the vaccine failed since it wasn't gone the year after it was introduced. One of your other examples in measles requires >90% vaccination rate to keep at bay.

 

[2Planker]

Lets set aside the significant differences between the viruses themselves... and what may actually be realistically achievable when it comes to vaccination against a coronavirus that will seemingly forever have a reservoir for mutation in humans.

It took us like 70 years to eradicate polio. You'd probably be posting that the vaccine failed since it wasn't gone the year after it was introduced. One of your other examples in measles requires >90% vaccination rate to keep at bay.

BU had a Measles outbreak 2-3 years ago, and YES there were "break thru" cases then...

We had a PR visit from Mayor Wu today, so naturally there was an AntiVax Protest by City of Boston Employees....

 

[deadheadskier]

Given that Dr Malone has, or is a part of, something like 8 or 9 patents on various mRNA related items, I am guessing that he knows way more about it, and how it's being presented, than any of us posting here do. Regardless of if he gave the impression that he was the solo inventor of the technology. Likely way more truths than exaggerations or false statements in his Rogan interview

I am pretty sure that the folks trying to discredit him have partaken in some media sources that haven't been fully accurate with how they have presented stories that often create an emotional reaction to them

Nice job totally dodging my questions . Extra points for the whataboutism encore too.

I conceded the man knows a lot and is very accomplished in my first comment on him. You know what? Lots of people have illustrious careers that oddly go south. Sidney Powell was once considered a rock star attorney. Does that opinion amongst her peers remain today? Probably not. Her integrity took a backseat to an agenda.

So, I'll ask again:

Do you think a MD should be referring to MRNA vaccines as Gene Therapy and broadcasting that false statement through multiple media outlets?

What's his motivation for misrepresenting the facts there?

Here's one more....

Are these the typical behaviors of a professional scientist?