Thoughts on Killington's shortened season (expected closing day is 4/13/2008)?

[andyzee]

Guess I'm in bitch mode tonight.


Breeze

No, I would say astute mode.

 

[MadPadraic]

Well, I'm probably not a typical eastern skier, but this year I'm unwilling to travel north and pay a premium to ski on man made snow unless there is a strong economic (stratton snowdayz + cheap magic ticket) or social reason. We will go to Wildcat for at least one holiday weekend this year--our way of encouraging them to repeat lasts year's epic late season run. Other ski trips will be last minute based upon impending blizzards or we will wait until April to spend the rest of our budget. This makes a trip to K much less likely than to Stowe or S'Bush. I'd like to visit K one day, but there are enough great mountains in New England that I plan on having a great April and May.

On a side note, the Smart Car being available in early spring will make spring skiing even more affordable! Kick ass.

 

[thetrailboss]

I've said it on K-Zone, but Killington is special because of the draw it's image created....that image was focusing on skiing and riding. SKI was in the ski/snowboard business. Not in real estate. For those that have read Lorentz's book, she discusses the innovations that Pres Smith and others made in the ski business, and details how they focused on the skiing aspect. There is little or no talk about real estate. Yeah they built some condos, but Pres Smith never built the village. In 2007 it is still not there. Did that make them less of a ski area? Not at all.

What we have going here with SP Lands, and with ASC, was primarily a real estate business with real estate people trying to run a ski area. Now that works in some places, but real estate people know how to build and market real estate. They don't know or really care as much about skiing and riding. That is an amenity. Period. Same thing is happening with Burke...the focus is on the real estate. By now Burke was supposed to have more snowmaking, more HSQ's, etc. But the company is pouring their $$$ into real estate planning.

Killington has always been about the skiing and riding. SKI poured their resources into it. They made it work. The ski industry is tough, but people are making money in it....look at Peak Resorts. They are only now getting into the real estate portion...before it was only skiing and riding.

A November-April season works if you are treating skiing as only an amenity that you are offering. When it is not your central business, then it does not matter. The only thing is that they don't realize that for Killington skiing has been the central attraction. Take it away and you don't really have much else.....

 

[JimG.]

I've said it on K-Zone, but Killington is special because of the draw it's image created....that image was focusing on skiing and riding. SKI was in the ski/snowboard business. Not in real estate. For those that have read Lorentz's book, she discusses the innovations that Pres Smith and others made in the ski business, and details how they focused on the skiing aspect. There is little or no talk about real estate. Yeah they built some condos, but Pres Smith never built the village. In 2007 it is still not there. Did that make them less of a ski area? Not at all.

What we have going here with SP Lands, and with ASC, was primarily a real estate business with real estate people trying to run a ski area. Now that works in some places, but real estate people know how to build and market real estate. They don't know or really care as much about skiing and riding. That is an amenity. Period. Same thing is happening with Burke...the focus is on the real estate. By now Burke was supposed to have more snowmaking, more HSQ's, etc. But the company is pouring their $$$ into real estate planning.

Killington has always been about the skiing and riding. SKI poured their resources into it. They made it work. The ski industry is tough, but people are making money in it....look at Peak Resorts. They are only now getting into the real estate portion...before it was only skiing and riding.

A November-April season works if you are treating skiing as only an amenity that you are offering. When it is not your central business, then it does not matter. The only thing is that they don't realize that for Killington skiing has been the central attraction. Take it away and you don't really have much else.....

I like this post.

You know, alot of people don't like Hunter because of a perceived and real lack of amenities. And even though Hunter is doing some real estate development, I doubt there will ever be villages or McMansions there.

Because Hunter still emphasizes snowmaking and skiing over the other business models.
I think there are alot of people here who would like skiing at Hunter if they came open minded and gave it a chance.

 

[thetrailboss]

I like this post.

You know, alot of people don't like Hunter because of a perceived and real lack of amenities. And even though Hunter is doing some real estate development, I doubt there will ever be villages or McMansions there.

Because Hunter still emphasizes snowmaking and skiing over the other business models.
I think there are alot of people here who would like skiing at Hunter if they came open minded and gave it a chance.

Thanks. It is the :roll: reality of the situation. We just need to focus on places where skiing and riding is still the focus. MRG and Hunter are good examples.

 

[Greg]

MRG and Hunter are good examples.

Am I mistaken or is someone seriously leaning towards the Triple Major now?

 

[nycskier]

I like this post.

You know, alot of people don't like Hunter because of a perceived and real lack of amenities. And even though Hunter is doing some real estate development, I doubt there will ever be villages or McMansions there.

Because Hunter still emphasizes snowmaking and skiing over the other business models.
I think there are alot of people here who would like skiing at Hunter if they came open minded and gave it a chance.

JimG, I like Thetrailboss' post too. I think he was right on.

I can't see how people complain about the amenities at Hunter. I always thought they had a great lodge and nearby Tannersville has some nice resturants and bars.

You gotta to love The Last Chance Antiques & Cheese Cafe!

 

[thetrailboss]

Am I mistaken or is someone seriously leaning towards the Triple Major now?

Man, someone has become the MRG cheerleader!!!!! :lol: :lol:

 

[thetrailboss]

In hindsight, I guess those skiers and riders should have gotten behind the modern version of this guy:

And invested in forming an entity to buy Killington and run it as a ski area. Right now it is owned by a real estate company (which is part of a private investment group IIRC). So their focus: real estate and $$$.

 

[JimG.]

JimG, I like Thetrailboss' post too. I think he was right on.

I can't see how people complain about the amenities at Hunter. I always thought they had a great lodge and nearby Tannersville has some nice resturants and bars.

You gotta to love The Last Chance Antiques & Cheese Cafe!

Well, truthfully, the lodge is dated and has the ambience of an airplane hangar. But the food is good, there is a Sushi bar, and there's always a strong apres ski contingent. And there are a few decent eateries (Last Chance is one) if you know where to go.

But Hunter will never be mistaken for a resort destination...and I hope it stays that way. It is what it is...a daytrip mountain for the NYC masses.

 

[Greg]

Well, truthfully, the lodge is dated and has the ambience of an airplane hangar. But the food is good...

Agreed! I think the Hunter cafe food is far better than most places. The bacon cheeseburger and fries always satisfy.

 

[JimG.]

Agreed! I think the Hunter cafe food is far better than most places. The bacon cheeseburger and fries always satisfy.

When I took my trees/steeps clinic this past March, an instructor from Windham was in my group. She was a strong skier and I asked her if she ever got over to Hunter. She perked right up and said she does as often as she can. Better terrain and she made special mention of the food.

It's simple but good. Although I have heard a few folks complain about the burgers making them sick.

 

[nycskier]

Well, truthfully, the lodge is dated and has the ambience of an airplane hangar. But the food is good, there is a Sushi bar, and there's always a strong apres ski contingent. And there are a few decent eateries (Last Chance is one) if you know where to go.

But Hunter will never be mistaken for a resort destination...and I hope it stays that way. It is what it is...a daytrip mountain for the NYC masses.

Exactly. Hunter is commuter mountian and the people who run it are smart enough to know that!

They never try to make Hunter into something it is not, which is what seems to be happening at Killington.

Closing in mid-April is not The Beast of the East and NOT what Killington is about.

 

[thetrailboss]

Exactly. Hunter is commuter mountian and the people who run it are smart enough to know that!

They never try to make Hunter into something it is not, which is what seems to be happening at Killington.

Closing in mid-April is not The Beast of the East and NOT what Killington is about.

Staying open long was what distinguished Killington from other mountains. It was what made it special. Without it, it becomes another mountain. Or to spoof what they ran for ads two years ago, another "McMountain."

 

[JimG.]

They never try to make Hunter into something it is not, which is what seems to be happening at Killington.

Closing in mid-April is not The Beast of the East and NOT what Killington is about.

There are an awful lot of skiers who go to VT ski areas who don't care about any of that though. I'm not going to mention specific areas but the clientele who visits those places doesn't care about the raw skiing end of the equation.

You and I go to a ski area to ski. These folks go to a mountain resort to rest and relax and maybe take a few runs, in between a gourmet lunch and cocktails at 2:30pm in the business center/lounge.

That's the business POWDR/SP wants.

 

[andyzee]

There are an awful lot of skiers who go to VT ski areas who don't care about any of that though. I'm not going to mention specific areas but the clientele who visits those places doesn't care about the raw skiing end of the equation.

You and I go to a ski area to ski. These folks go to a mountain resort to rest and relax and maybe take a few runs, in between a gourmet lunch and cocktails at 2:30pm in the business center/lounge.

That's the business POWDR/SP wants.

You can find this at Okemo and Stratton who do it well. Why travel even further north to a place with tougher terrain? If they do indeed pursue this model, I give Powdr 5 years before they sell Killington.

 

[threecy]

I don't necessarily see this as bad news for skiers. If there truly is late season demand, Sugarbush and Wildcat should be able to pick up the skier visits and extend their operations. Since these are much better ski areas in terms of terrain (and facilities at this point), it's probably a good thing!

 

[SkiDog]

Sugarbush and Wildcat should be able to pick up the skier visits and Since these are much better ski areas in terms of terrain

Wow thats quite a bold statement...I dont think Sugarbush OR Wildcat can touch Killington in terms of diversity of terrain....I dont think Killingtons terrain has EVER been the issue..PLUS i know for one I wouldnt be driving 7+hrs to get to Wildcat for May (or whatever late season) turns....just not worth it.

M

 

[Greg]

I dont think Sugarbush OR Wildcat can touch Killington in terms of diversity of terrain...

Now that's what I would call a bold statement. For me, Killington can't hold a candle to the terrain at Sugarbush. Throw MRG in there and even debating it enters into silly territory.

 

[threecy]

PLUS i know for one I wouldnt be driving 7+hrs to get to Wildcat for May (or whatever late season) turns....just not worth it.

M

Note that I list both of them - Wildcat for the Beantown market and Sugarbush for the NY market.

In terms of top to bottom runs, Killington does not come close to Sugarbush. Killington is a glorified mid-sized ski area, connected by an abundance of crossovers and otherwise useless lifts.

Wildcat may not have the top to bottom novice terrain or tough expert terrain that K-Mart has, but the terrain they do offer is much more interesting and scenic - and served by a 6 minute, 2000' vertical high speed quad.