Thoughts on Killington's shortened season (expected closing day is 4/13/2008)?

[SkiDog]

Killington 3050' , Sugarbush 2650'

I think it's been covered here too may times that Killington has multiple 1500' peaks and the 3050' is clever marketing.

Mt Ellen at Sugarbush is a legitimate 2600 from the summit to the base lodge

If you go look at that site I listed it CLEARLY states the resorts where the vertical is NOT ACTUAL....

NOTE Killington is NOT ONE OF THOSE RESORTS..

We are not talking about "tough" or "expert" vertical....we are talking about total vertical..I think like Great Northern or one of those long windy top to bottom beginner trails is the TOTAL 3050 vertical.

Lest anyone think different..KILLINGTON IS THE HIGHEST LIFT SERVED RESORT IN NEW ENGLAND.

Argue all you want, but its to no avail.

M

 

[ski_resort_observer]

I think HS said over at kzone he didn't do it but complained that alot of it's content was lifted from his past posts. He is very humble and appreciates opinions that do not agree with his own. I also heard he is the greatest skier on the planet so he obviously knows what he's talking about. Oops, excuse me, I think I have to go hurl, must have been something I ate.
:wink:

 

[SkiDog]

I think HS said over at kzone he didn't do it but complained that alot of it's content was lifted from his past posts. He is very humble and appreciates opinions that do not agree with his own. I also heard he is the greatest skier on the planet so he obviously knows what he's talking about. Oops, excuse me, I think I have to go hurl, must have been something I ate.
:wink:

Simple statement...

"Mandatory GS Turns"

M

 

[WWF-VT]

If you go look at that site I listed it CLEARLY states the resorts where the vertical is NOT ACTUAL....

NOTE Killington is NOT ONE OF THOSE RESORTS..

We are not talking about "tough" or "expert" vertical....we are talking about total vertical..I think like Great Northern or one of those long windy top to bottom beginner trails is the TOTAL 3050 vertical.

Lest anyone think different..KILLINGTON IS THE HIGHEST LIFT SERVED RESORT IN NEW ENGLAND.

Argue all you want, but its to no avail.

M

From the web site - http://verticalfeet.com/ - here is what they are listing:

Accurate Lift-served Vertical Feet Totals
For Most North American Ski Areas and Resorts
Includes total, lift-served* and continuous vertical**

It did not say "KILLINGTON IS THE HIGHEST LIFT SERVED RESORT IN NEW ENGLAND"

 

[SkiDog]

From the web site - http://verticalfeet.com/ - here is what they are listing:

Accurate Lift-served Vertical Feet Totals
For Most North American Ski Areas and Resorts
Includes total, lift-served* and continuous vertical**

It did not say "KILLINGTON IS THE HIGHEST LIFT SERVED RESORT IN NEW ENGLAND"

Ummm no I never said that site said that..I said that site has the TRUE vertical listed...

As for them being the highest lift served...thats ALL OVER...should I start listing the various sites NOT KILLINGTON owned that say that??? The list will be LONG..

Umm yeah I think the Killington Peak is a little over 4000ft...the lift doesnt go that high anymore....but it comes VERY close...so....shall we continue?

M

 

[ski_resort_observer]

There are an awful lot of skiers who go to VT ski areas who don't care about any of that though. I'm not going to mention specific areas but the clientele who visits those places doesn't care about the raw skiing end of the equation.

You and I go to a ski area to ski. These folks go to a mountain resort to rest and relax and maybe take a few runs, in between a gourmet lunch and cocktails at 2:30pm in the business center/lounge.

That's the business POWDR/SP wants.

Bingo!

 

[awf170]

IF they get snow...and thats a HUGE IF.....what wouldve happened this past season early if you were a MRG pass holder???? Hmmmmmmm....sorry....consistent product is what Killington offers..

And....OBVIOUSLY...noones EVER taken you into the "unmarked" trees at Killington..

There are MANY MANY unmarked places at K that simply blow away The Bush and Wildcat...

I will agree though that Wildcat has the best views around....but i'm not skiing for views...sorry..

M

Blow away Sugarbush? From what I can tell Sugarbush has ton of unmarked stuff. The whole backside, the area inbetween the south and north, and the area between castlerock and heavens gates. No way K-mart can compete with all that. I think Sugarbush is one of the most overrated ski area in the east, but you have to agree that they have a ton of acreage.

Touche...

But I believe the final snow total marker at Killington this past year stood at 294"...nicely fills in any gaps that the trees might have.

M

MRG gets more snow than Killington.

Im not saying the Bush doesnt have terrain thats "expert"....I just dont think it has anywhere near as much diversity as K.....I would use the fiddle as an example in a good snow year for sure....not much else like it in the east....

M

The Fiddle looks awesome. I will give you that one.

So, what are you saying, you think it riverc0il?

That's why he hasn't been posting much anymore!

Simple statement...

"Mandatory GS Turns"

M

I like the mandatory GS turn idea. I don't know if he can do it, but you have to admit it is the most radical way you can ski the trees. That's basically what the Meatheads do. I like HighwayStar... at least he doesn't think zipper-lining bumps kills them.

 

[Newpylong]

Ummm no I never said that site said that..I said that site has the TRUE vertical listed...

As for them being the highest lift served...thats ALL OVER...should I start listing the various sites NOT KILLINGTON owned that say that??? The list will be LONG..

Umm yeah I think the Killington Peak is a little over 4000ft...the lift doesnt go that high anymore....but it comes VERY close...so....shall we continue?

M

What do you mean anymore? No lift ever went higher than they do now...

 

[SkiDog]

[QUOTE="awf170, post: 169532, member: 1141"]Blow away Sugarbush? From what I can tell Sugarbush has ton of

MRG gets more snow that Killington.

Not this past season...yeah its close...Killington claims 294" and MRG claims 284" I think...so...while you're close its not on...not to mention both sites claim 250 avg so lets call it SAME AMOUNT...fair?

M

 

[SkiDog]

What do you mean anymore? No lift ever went higher than they do now...

I thought the original chair went higher than the gondi????

Here I could be wrong, but it still doesn't change the fact that they are the HIGHEST lift served in New England..

M

 

[awf170]

Not this past season...yeah its close...Killington claims 294" and MRG claims 284" I think...so...while you're close its not on...not to mention both sites claim 250 avg so lets call it SAME AMOUNT...fair?

M

MRG doesn't inflate totals like everyone else. Compare K-mart to Sugarbush. Sugarbush 314" vs. K-mart 294". The futher north you go in Vermont the more snow. Jay gets the most, then stowe/bolton/smuggs, then MRV, then K-mart.

 

[SkiDog]

MRG doesn't inflate totals like everyone else. Compare K-mart to Sugarbush. Sugarbush 314" vs. K-mart 294". The futher north you go in Vermont the more snow. Jay gets the most, then stowe/bolton/smuggs, then MRV, then K-mart.

All im going by is posted resort totals...

M

 

[MikeTrainor]

All im going by is posted resort totals...

M

I think this question was answered before. Some mountains only count the snow total during their operating time. Not snow in October or after they close. Others count all snow received for the year.

Also I would take Wildcat or Sugarbush over Killington any day. I don't understand why some people think Wildcat lacks diverse terrain or does not have some difficult runs.

 

[andyzee]

Mountain Creek rules!

 

[nycskier]

Two words, Mountain Creek.

LOL!!!!! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[nycskier]

I thought the original chair went higher than the gondi????

Here I could be wrong, but it still doesn't change the fact that they are the HIGHEST lift served in New England..

M

The original chair was higher than the Gondi but about the same place as the current K1 gondi. If I am not mistaken the original Gondi let out at The Killington Peak Lodge and the chair lift let out slightly higher up where the K1 Gondi lets out now.

 

[Newpylong]

I thought the original chair went higher than the gondi????

Here I could be wrong, but it still doesn't change the fact that they are the HIGHEST lift served in New England..

M

Nope.. for all intents and purposes the old Gondola, the old peak chair, and the K1 all are at the same height. If anything, the K1 is higher than both of them used to be (it had to be set further back/up to house the terminal). But we're talking only 10's of feet.

 

[MadPadraic]

ILet me get this straight...ASC screws Killington up, bails out and goes bankrupt, and the logical reaction is to go after the new owners who want to make changes to what is generally accepted to be a bad situation? I know, everyone is for change unless the change affects them, then it's war.

I reject this. The fact that an experienced industry player payed $80 million for this place precludes the possibility that K's operation is truely a bad situation. ASC geared up the balance sheet at high rates and couldn't escape; Powd'r presumably expects to avoid the same debt obligations.

As for being opposed to change, a shorter season is going to negatively impact local businesses and passholder utility. It may also impact property values. It makes sense that stakeholders would try and influence Powd'r's behavior.

 

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

This probably has been said before, but, since I rationalize early closings for Whiteface the same way, I thought I'd post my .02 cents.

I completely understand why loyal Killington skiers would feel outraged by having something that they considered a given (super long seasons) taken away from them. I don't agree with them, but I understand the anger one can feel when something one thinks one is entitled to is taken away. I grew up thinking Killington was THE place for late-season skiing.

But, for the VAST majority of skiers, including those who drive long distances to ski mid-winter, do they really care? Do people really ski Killington in December - March instead of other areas because the season is longer at Killington? Maybe some might think it demonstrates a committment to snowmaking, but I think it's common knowledge they only make the insane snow on Superstar....

Who drives 2 hours to ski in May? Probably not many. Locals do, obviously, but locals don't really bring in the big bucks (they don't stay in hotels, they're more apt to brown bag lunch (I do at WF), etc.).

Everyone seems to agree that Killington needs tons of money to upgrade its lifts and other equipment. Where's this money supposed to come from? I'm sure the new owners have studied skier traffic during various parts of the year and determined that the extra investment to keep the area open isn't worth it. The new owners probably need a little bit of time running the place to figure out their game plan. I'd be willing to give them a break. They spent $86 million. They can't be idiots, can they? Then again, I hardly ever ski Killington. So it's easy for me to say this.

I'd venture to guess that most of the people who ski Killington do so for the vast amount of terrain, and, for the weekenders and week-long vacationers, the pretty good nightlife and restaurants. I just don't see that crowd choosing another resort in February because Killington isn't open in May.

 

[thetrailboss]

This probably has been said before, but, since I rationalize early closings for Whiteface the same way, I thought I'd post my .02 cents.

I completely understand why loyal Killington skiers would feel outraged by having something that they considered a given (super long seasons) taken away from them. I don't agree with them, but I understand the anger one can feel when something one thinks one is entitled to is taken away. I grew up thinking Killington was THE place for late-season skiing.

Here we go with the entitlement argument again....I think that this is a skewed POV of what is happening. Folks don't agree with the fundamental shift in Killington's philosophy. It is not really an argument as to what a skier/rider is entitled to... plus if you owned property at Killington, you might not have that POV. Consider that....

But, for the VAST majority of skiers, including those who drive long distances to ski mid-winter, do they really care? Do people really ski Killington in December - March instead of other areas because the season is longer at Killington? Maybe some might think it demonstrates a committment to snowmaking, but I think it's common knowledge they only make the insane snow on Superstar....

The long season was because SKI/Sherburne Corp. made its $$$ off of skiing. So they needed to offer it longer than anyone else to create the Killington brand and to make it distinct. You and I might be able to see what was going on, but it did work and most average skiers and riders DID react to the PR of having Killington opening early and closing late.

Who drives 2 hours to ski in May? Probably not many.

In May of this year I saw a lot of NY, NJ, MA, CT plates....they drove from more than 2 hours. Lots of folks come.

Locals do, obviously, but locals don't really bring in the big bucks (they don't stay in hotels, they're more apt to brown bag lunch (I do at WF), etc.).

Actually, "locals" do bring money to the mountains in the form of buying passes for their familes and skiing on days when "out of towners" don't. They are also there year-round to support local businesses and the mountain. So yes, they are very important. In this case as well, with Act 250, having good town relations translates into fewer obstacles in the project review process....

I also think it is dangerous to make the stereotype of the "rich" outsider vs. the "poor" locals. At the end of the day, Killington's neighbors are the ones who can make a big difference in things....

Everyone seems to agree that Killington needs tons of money to upgrade its lifts and other equipment. Where's this money supposed to come from? I'm sure the new owners have studied skier traffic during various parts of the year and determined that the extra investment to keep the area open isn't worth it. The new owners probably need a little bit of time running the place to figure out their game plan. I'd be willing to give them a break. They spent $86 million. They can't be idiots, can they? Then again, I hardly ever ski Killington. So it's easy for me to say this.

They're not "idiots." It's just that people are :angry: because this is not a skiing company that is focusing on skiing. It is a real estate company focusing on developing and selling real estate. AlpineZone is a place where skiers and riders chat, not where real estate moguls shoot the breeze....the interests are not much aligned now...

As for how they can raise $$$ to fund renovations of the resort, this company is relying on building a village and real estate because the ski area is an amenity for its visitors. It is trying to broaden the "product" to be more than skiing....which runs counter to skiers/riders who think in terms of just skiing and riding.

I just don't see that crowd choosing another resort in February because Killington isn't open in May.

We can only wait and see....a substantial portion of the K-mart market came because it was "the beast of the east" and focused so much on the "skiing" product.