Thoughts on Killington's shortened season (expected closing day is 4/13/2008)?

[threecy]

It'll be interesting to see how closing in April instead of May/June affects them. They certainly aren't the first area to abandon late season operations. My guess is that the late season losses probabaly more than compensate for the potential loss of peak season customers.

 

[thetrailboss]

It'll be interesting to see how closing in April instead of May/June affects them. They certainly aren't the first area to abandon late season operations. My guess is that the late season losses probabaly more than compensate for the potential loss of peak season customers.

Yes, it will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

plus if you owned property at Killington, you might not have that POV. Consider that....

IMHO, I don't think many, if any, pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for a piece of property to ski in October or May. It might be a small part of the equation, but I would think not much.

The long season was because SKI/Sherburne Corp. made its $$$ off of skiing. So they needed to offer it longer than anyone else to create the Killington brand and to make it distinct.

To me, this argument suggests that Killington does not merit skiing as much as the Bush, Stowe, Stratton, etc. without the long ski season. I think there's plenty at Killington to get people up there. IMHO, skiing early/late season has to be in the bottom half of the top 10 reasons.

In May of this year I saw a lot of NY, NJ, MA, CT plates....they drove from more than 2 hours. Lots of folks come.

Obviously not enough to off-set the cost.

Actually, "locals" do bring money to the mountains in the form of buying passes for their familes and skiing on days when "out of towners" don't. They are also there year-round to support local businesses and the mountain. So yes, they are very important.

No doubt locals do bring in money. IMHO, not enough to keep the mountain open late. And, since they're locals, where else are they going to ski? If they like skiing Killington in February, will they stop as a protest? IMHO, doubtful.

I also think it is dangerous to make the stereotype of the "rich" outsider vs. the "poor" locals. At the end of the day, Killington's neighbors are the ones who can make a big difference in things....

If I gave such an impression, I'm sorry, I definitely didn't mean it. All I was trying to say is that outsiders spend more at ski areas because they have to (they have to book accomodations, they likely eat at the mountain, they tend to buy day/week passes).

AlpineZone is a place where skiers and riders chat, not where real estate moguls shoot the breeze....the interests are not much aligned now...

Fair enough. But, a place like Killington, with all its fancy lifts, snowmaking and grooming needs resources to keep it going. Maybe someone could make a go of it just focusing on the skiing end of things, but it seems to me smaller resorts would have more luck doing so and are better suited to such a philosophy.

 

[threecy]

In May of this year I saw a lot of NY, NJ, MA, CT plates....they drove from more than 2 hours. Lots of folks come.

Obviously not enough to off-set the cost.

Don't forget that there is timeshare/condo/vacation house property that isn't slopeside. Those people will most likely have out of state plates.

 

[JimG.]

As for being opposed to change, a shorter season is going to negatively impact local businesses and passholder utility. It may also impact property values. It makes sense that stakeholders would try and influence Powd'r's behavior.

And I reject this. Other than places like AZ, there just are not enough regular skiers who want the longer season to affect business, passholders, or property values in any appreciable way. Listen, places like Vail, Beaver Creek, and Copper regularly close in mid-April with full coverage. Why? Because there isn't enough business to make it worthwhile. They're getting the golf course ready. And since K also has golf amongst other summer activities, I challenge you on the point that a shorter ski season makes any difference.

Other than to folks like you and me who want to ski however we can.

 

[nycskier]

Listen, places like Vail, Beaver Creek, and Copper regularly close in mid-April with full coverage. Why? Because there isn't enough business to make it worthwhile. They're getting the golf course ready. And since K also has golf amongst other summer activities, I challenge you on the point that a shorter ski season makes any difference.

Actually Vail closes in Mid-April becasue Fedreal Government tells them to. Vail is located in White River National Forest. If I am not mistaken the ski slopes are on the mating paths of Caraboo or something so they have to close to allow the wildlife to roam.

If they could I am sure Vail would stay open longer. A-basin afterall makes good money on staying open late season.

As for golfing at Killington the Ski in the morning golf in the afternoon late season in May was something a lot of people look forward to and would even be willing to drive all the way from NYC or Boston for! Closing early deprives them of that business.

 

[nycskier]

I completely understand why loyal Killington skiers would feel outraged by having something that they considered a given (super long seasons) taken away from them. I don't agree with them, but I understand the anger one can feel when something one thinks one is entitled to is taken away. I grew up thinking Killington was THE place for late-season skiing.

But, for the VAST majority of skiers, including those who drive long distances to ski mid-winter, do they really care? Do people really ski Killington in December - March instead of other areas because the season is longer at Killington? Maybe some might think it demonstrates a committment to snowmaking, but I think it's common knowledge they only make the insane snow on Superstar....

Who drives 2 hours to ski in May? Probably not many. Locals do, obviously, but locals don't really bring in the big bucks (they don't stay in hotels, they're more apt to brown bag lunch (I do at WF), etc.).

Everyone seems to agree that Killington needs tons of money to upgrade its lifts and other equipment. Where's this money supposed to come from? I'm sure the new owners have studied skier traffic during various parts of the year and determined that the extra investment to keep the area open isn't worth it. The new owners probably need a little bit of time running the place to figure out their game plan. I'd be willing to give them a break. They spent $86 million. They can't be idiots, can they? Then again, I hardly ever ski Killington. So it's easy for me to say this.

I'd venture to guess that most of the people who ski Killington do so for the vast amount of terrain, and, for the weekenders and week-long vacationers, the pretty good nightlife and restaurants. I just don't see that crowd choosing another resort in February because Killington isn't open in May.

You are missing the point. 1st of all no one feels "entitled" to a long season. We are consumers in a free market and we make choices where to spend our dollars.

When Killington raises pass prices 70%, increase blackout day on those passes by 50% and tells up they are closing 4 to 6 weeks earlier than previous years without showing us any improvements to the resort a lot of customers will choose to take there business elsewhere.

I know I am not buying a season pass this year and I will most likely take by business elsewhere and ski a lot more at other resorts this season.

The anger that many former Killington skiers are expressing comes from a sadness that the place they love seems to be going in the wrong direction as we try to figure out where to ski next year.

 

[JimG.]

If they could I am sure Vail would stay open longer. A-basin afterall makes good money on staying open late season.

I don't get it...isn't it clear or is it alot of wishful thinking?

How do you take one of the resorts I mention, assign a different reason for its' closure, and then deduce they would certainly stay open longer if they could? Are you or someone in your family the owners? And what about all the other resorts on the I-70 corridor that close the same time, in mid-April, and the government has nothing to do with it? So we just throw that away because it doesn't jibe with how you want things to be?

And how do you know that A-Basin makes so much money staying open longer? Have you done a financial analysis? You throw these things out like they are undeniable facts when they simply are not.

 

[JimG.]

You are missing the point. 1st of all no one feels "entitled" to a long season. We are consumers in a free market and we make choices where to spend our dollars.

When Killington raises pass prices 70%, increase blackout day on those passes by 50% and tells up they are closing 4 to 6 weeks earlier than previous years without showing us any improvements to the resort a lot of customers will choose to take there business elsewhere.

I know I am not buying a season pass this year and I will most likely take by business elsewhere and ski a lot more at other resorts this season.

The anger that many former Killington skiers are expressing comes from a sadness that the place they love seems to be going in the wrong direction as we try to figure out where to ski next year.

Sorry, you sound as entitled as they come.

Those increases in pass prices merely bring Killington into line with other comparable ski areas' prices. Those cheap passes were a business disaster and have perhaps irreparably damaged the eastern ski industry as a whole by creating unreasonable expectations. I for one am glad to see them go. And their season now reflects that, in line with most other areas.

In the free market you mention, you are welcome to vote with your dollars. I do. That's why I don't go to Killington. If you don't like the new system, don't go there. And here's a tip...nobody will care if you do go elsewhere. Nobody.

And to the sad folks who don't like the new direction K is taking, you should have ponied up $80 million. Because it's clear K doesn't care about the raw "I'm there to ski" skiers anymore and wants a new direction. And it's their call. And who knows if they will be successful. I can tell you nobody here knows.

 

[loafer89]

Wow 11 pages on this thread already. This year will be the 20th anniversary of when I first started skiing at klllington in October, with my first time on Cascade on October 31st, 1987. Living in the NYC area at the time and nearly since then made these trips very expensive as we could not do them as a day trip. This meant lots of money spent on local food, lodging, lift tickets and gas that I would otherwise have lept at home and in my pocket. So we did alot more than just come up for a few turns and then leave. I probably have about 20-30 October and May days under my belt at Killington that required alot of $$$$$ to do.

Killington was always know to me as having the longest season in the east, and it was something that they took great pride in, with holding a May 1st slalom since 1961. I bought stock in SKII and held it for 6 years before the buyout by ASC in 1996 just to be a small part of what I really liked about Killington, a commitment to skiing whenever possible, this made Killington alot of money and the company enjoyed better than 30 years of sustained profitability.

With a mid November to mid April ski season, I have no desire to ski Killington at all anymore, so they will be losing my business for good. I am unsure of what the future will bring to the mountain as they will be run more or less the same as your average New England ski area, with a comporable season length to Okemo, mount Snow, etc.

Honestly the more I think about it, Killington will just be reducing operating expenses with a shorter ski season, while still making a profit off the average joe who ski's 10 days a year and could care less about 75 extra days of season length.

Local businesses will suffer somewhat with no draw during October and in late April and May, with little else to do in the area during those months.

 

[win]

I think this question was answered before. Some mountains only count the snow total during their operating time. Not snow in October or after they close. Others count all snow received for the year.

Also I would take Wildcat or Sugarbush over Killington any day. I don't understand why some people think Wildcat lacks diverse terrain or does not have some difficult runs.

Yes, we only count the snowfall after we open for the season and only until we close. We also try to use a representative total rather than find the one spot with the deepest depth. Next year we are going to try to get a better read Summit, Mid and Base and both Lincoln Peak and Mount Ellen as the totals can vary materially over 2,600 feet of vertical here and even between the two mountains with the Lake effect we get here.

 

[Breeze]

I'm sure to be entertained by the BS circulating the forums about K-mart.

Plans are plans, and the best laid plans can be blown to bits by weather.

Don't you think that given the free love of a late season natural P dump, K wouldn't stretch?

Of course they would, they would have to, just to keep pace with competitors


Powdr and SP aren't making high marks out of the box, but this stuff is all just on paper.

Wind people up, get them hot and bothered, grab some publicity, get the name out there, under promise and over deliver.. piss off some and hope for a net gain.

Next up with 85 million bucks? Your money, your turn.

Breeze

 

[snoseek]

Yes, we only count the snowfall after we open for the season and only until we close. We also try to use a representative total rather than find the one spot with the deepest depth. Next year we are going to try to get a better read Summit, Mid and Base and both Lincoln Peak and Mount Ellen as the totals can vary materially over 2,600 feet of vertical here and even between the two mountains with the Lake effect we get here.

o.k a little off topic.... have you seen the live lit snow stake on snowbird website. i bet that would be quite popular during snow events. i'm suprised more ski areas don't use this idea. should have chimed in on the challenge about that.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

I don't think the announced mid Nov -mid April dates are set in stone. They are weather dependent and IMHO will change if the situation calls for it. Powdr is very smart, they are not going to say anything, including we might open early or close later....., that can come back on them. As we said in the beginning of this thread...under promise is a smart way to go.

Making any decisions based on these dates or getting all worked up, like many people seem to be doing, is naive and premature IMHO. As mentioned before, most of the market has little interest in skiing in May, not nearly enough for any kind of cost/benefit on the positive side, financially speaking. It's a diferent world out there then it used to be, get used to it and adapt to it, that's how you really win.

 

[Greg]

I don't think the announced mid Nov -mid April dates are set in stone. They are weather dependent and IMHO will change if the situation calls for it. Powdr is very smart, they are not going to say anything, including we might open early or close later....., that can come back on them. As we said in the beginning of this thread...under promise is a smart way to go.

Perhaps, but if you don't make enough snow to get to May throughout the season, you'll only get there if it's a very cold spring and/or multiple late season dumps. I sure hope that happens two years in a row, but I'm not holding my breath. I can see an early November opening if it's cold enough.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

In the past few years opening up in early Nov has been very risky business. Even if you get cold weather, make a bunch of snow and open, is it really a good business decision if a few weeks later it all melts away and the resort has to shut down?

 

[MadPadraic]

And I reject this. Other than places like AZ, there just are not enough regular skiers who want the longer season to affect business, passholders, or property values in any appreciable way. Listen, places like Vail, Beaver Creek, and Copper regularly close in mid-April with full coverage. Why? Because there isn't enough business to make it worthwhile. They're getting the golf course ready. And since K also has golf amongst other summer activities, I challenge you on the point that a shorter ski season makes any difference.

Other than to folks like you and me who want to ski however we can.

To make sure I'm not misquoting/misunderstanding you, you are saying that there aren't enough late/early season skiers that area business won't be affected by a 6 week shorter season? You're also saying that only a few (previous) Killington passholders care about season length?

I don't think that the Co mountains are a fair comparison because of their geography. For a very large part of their customer base, getting there involves a flight. For VT resorts it typically involves driving and can be schedule last minute, rather than a minimum of 2 weeks in advance. This obviously affects frequency of visits and hence impacts pass decisions.

 

[MadPadraic]

IMHO, I don't think many, if any, pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for a piece of property to ski in October or May. It might be a small part of the equation, but I would think not much.

Well, when one decides to buy a piece of ski property they no doubt do so near a ski area they like. Killington has always placed a major emphasis on their long season. Its not that far fetched that some condo owners picked K partly for the long season.

To me, this argument suggests that Killington does not merit skiing as much as the Bush, Stowe, Stratton, etc. without the long ski season. I think there's plenty at Killington to get people up there. IMHO, skiing early/late season has to be in the bottom half of the top 10 reasons.

Bush and Stowe had long seasons this year.

Obviously not enough to off-set the cost.

This is unclear. Managers are perfectly capable of making bad decisions and the effect of this one won't be understood until at least 2009.

No doubt locals do bring in money. IMHO, not enough to keep the mountain open late. And, since they're locals, where else are they going to ski? If they like skiing Killington in February, will they stop as a protest? IMHO, doubtful.

Well they could suck it up and ski at Okemo, which is very close. They could travel a bit and be any number of places. K's not all that remote once you're there.

Fair enough. But, a place like Killington, with all its fancy lifts, snowmaking and grooming needs resources to keep it going. Maybe someone could make a go of it just focusing on the skiing end of things, but it seems to me smaller resorts would have more luck doing so and are better suited to such a philosophy.

I don't see why it has to be an either/or.

 

[JimG.]

Powdr and SP aren't making high marks out of the box, but this stuff is all just on paper.

Wind people up, get them hot and bothered, grab some publicity, get the name out there, under promise and over deliver.. piss off some and hope for a net gain.

Next up with 85 million bucks? Your money, your turn.

Breeze

Ah, great minds think alike. Killington closed on May 6...I'll bet they've been the most talked about ski area in the US since because of all of this.

 

[JimG.]

To make sure I'm not misquoting/misunderstanding you, you are saying that there aren't enough late/early season skiers that area business won't be affected by a 6 week shorter season? You're also saying that only a few (previous) Killington passholders care about season length?

Yes, you understood completely...I do not believe there are enough skiers in those time frames to make a huge difference to any well run local business. I was up there on 4/29 a week before they closed this season and half the businesses were closed already! Those businesses KNOW already it doesn't pay to stay open past mid-April.

I know property owners up at K, families who spend plenty up there. No, they don't care at all about skiing past April because they have families and other activities come May. That's just a fact.

The new K doesn't care about the single, hard core skier who will hike for turns in June and ski until they are peeled off the lifts. They want families and they want to run their operation like Okemo and Stratton.