Day tickets going through the roof in Vermont

[VTKilarney]

Are any outdoor sports growing? Golf? Skating/hockey? Surfing? Canoeing? Sailing? Fishing? Hunting? Rock Climbing? Scuba diving?

Biking seems to have grown, especially mountain biking. Judging by Franconia Notch and Crawford Notch parking, hiking is still very popular.

Another issue is that you have a generation of kids that are growing up on video games. They just don't value outdoor leisure activities, especially in the colder months.

 

[PAabe]

It is getting harder to get people to do things outside, or otherwise, things that aren't comfortable, void of risk, and easy. Boy Scouts are having big problems with membership. You can get people to go on a leisurely walk in the woods, or float downstream in a kayak, but there is a big gap between that and and even biking for example- you rarely see people casually biking, almost everybody is decked out in pro gear. I know many people that cannot ride a bike.

It is hard to get people to do an activity like skiing that is not comfortable, easy, or entirely "safe." It also seems like it is less cool than it once was.

Also, better ski equipment makes feeder hills less challenging, and rising insurance and liability costs has been the cited final straw for a lot of places.

 

[drjeff]

It is getting harder to get people to do things outside, or otherwise, things that aren't comfortable, void of risk, and easy. Boy Scouts are having big problems with membership. You can get people to go on a leisurely walk in the woods, or float downstream in a kayak, but there is a big gap between that and and even biking for example- you rarely see people casually biking, almost everybody is decked out in pro gear. I know many people that cannot ride a bike.

It is hard to get people to do an activity like skiing that is not comfortable, easy, or entirely "safe." It also seems like it is less cool than it once was.

Also, better ski equipment makes feeder hills less challenging, and rising insurance and liability costs has been the cited final straw for a lot of places.

And I think that some of the struggles that the industry is facing (costs for employee housing, drawing in new people to the sport) can be directly tied back to your correct assesment that it is getting more and more difficult to get people to accept the fact that some risk is actually OK (and frankly can be lots of fun) and then when they want to do something like try skiing/riding they have certain minimum standards (or what they feel are their minimu standards) in whta lodging ammenities should be, which ties into the notion among many that anyone and everyone can flip a house into a world class home/condo/rental unit that will have people fighting over who will buy/rent it, and the prices keep going up. Plus, there's not always an app for actually skiing or riding that will do the actual sport for someone, and that is an issue among some for sure.

All of us passionate skiers and riders get what the draw of the sport is, and it seems like society wants to try and mnimize that excitement and risk among the masses to just something they watch on youtube rather than actually being outisde doing some version of it themselves. And that's too bad

 

[deadheadskier]

Don't forget what has improved:

Equipment changes have made it truly easier to learn.

Clothing improvements keep the cold out better. Goretex, fleece, microfiber down.

The 20 something price tier.

The internet has honed pricing deals and price comparisons, and has improved snow reporting.

Roads are generally better, more salt is used, and AWD is readily available in small cars.

Are any outdoor sports growing? Golf? Skating/hockey? Surfing? Canoeing? Sailing? Fishing? Hunting? Rock Climbing? Scuba diving?

I'm well aware of the improvements. Participation is still flat though.

As population has grown, many of those activities have shown growth or at least tracked with population growth.

 

[Hawk]

The way I see it, things will eventually change like they always do. When these large corporations realize they can't grow the industry anymore because a a large number of factors, they will cash out. For me that means that some other entity will own the mountian, passes will probably go up by say $300 to $500 and I will still be here living at the mountain. The upside is that myself, the locals and the regulars will get the mountain back. Downside may be that services go down, maintience is defered and snowmaking and grooming suffer. I don't mine if that is the end game, either way I will be here, own my housing and have all the toys in place. IF it snows, then there will be much to be happy about.

 

[ThatGuy]

The way I see it, things will eventually change like they always do. When these large corporations realize they can't grow the industry anymore because a a large number of factors, they will cash out. For me that means that some other entity will own the mountian, passes will probably go up by say $300 to $500 and I will still be here living at the mountain. The upside is that myself, the locals and the regulars will get the mountain back. Downside may be that services go down, maintience is defered and snowmaking and grooming suffer. I don't mine if that is the end game, either way I will be here, own my housing and have all the toys in place. IF it snows, then there will be much to be happy about.

So you own a condo at a mountain (Sugarbush I believe) that is most likely not going to close. Sounds like a great situation but you are not the demographic that is going to be effected by most of this stuff. It’s the people at the independent resorts or smaller hills that will suffer or the people who want to buy day passes and learn the sport. Which in turn will begin to effect all mountains since no new people are participating. If the small hills are all closed where can you turn when the corporations cash out?

 

[Hawk]

I think it will be the opposite. People are getting priced out so smaller hills will see an increse in visit. Personally I do not see a decrease in skiers and riders. It is stagnating. There will always be people who want to do the sport. It just won't grow. The places that weather the storm will survive.

 

[Cobbold]

Definitely bipolar conversations that go on here, some days we complain about the ski areas being too busy, dam epic/ikon then we are worried that their is not enough new skiers in the pipelines. like all sports/hobbies it is a matter of what you want to spend your time and money on. Lots of my neighbors have big boats snowmobiles, campers, big trucks, it’s all on how you decide to spend your disposable income. All hobbies are expensive in money and time, not sure what to make of the actual number of skiers in the us vs the population growth, as long as new skiers match old skiers leaving the industry, ski industry should be ok, in my opinion. Advances in equipment and technology has improved skiing, making for a better experience especially for new skiers. If the number of skiers stays at 15 million, not sure any one has a handle on how many skiers their are, no matter the population growth, the industry with increases in wages/ wealth should be able to get more money from the same number of skiers, I know their is an argument to make usa real wages have fallen over the decades, but that seems another argument for another day. I guess what I am trying to say, skiing has always been a niche market, and it’s easier for wealthy people to enjoy than less wealthy people but, people of all wage levels participate if it is their hobby, and they find a way to do it in their budget, that was true in 1960 and is true today.

 

[jimk]

I gotta say it, the mega-passes represent the best of times for this retired boomer with wanderlust and a bit of disposable income.

 

[Kingslug20]

I gotta say it, the mega-passes represent the best of times for this retired boomer with wanderlust and a bit of disposable income.

And there ya go!

 

[boston_e]

I think the only major changes you'll see are a return of upscale/expensive independent resorts to fill the shoes of Deer Valley, Beaver Creek, Aspen, Jackson, etc that have been Ikonized. I think Powdr would have a good shot at doing this. Killington, Copper, and Snowbird are all big draws in their respective regions...and in places where people are sick of crowds. Take them off Ikon and charge $1,000 a pop for a season pass (single mountain). Now you're suddenly a "unique experience" in that you're exclusive.

Killington already charges $1000 for a season pass (single mountain). What is their incentive to get off of IKON?

 

[Harvey]

How many years has it been since any of you walked up to a window and bought an un-discounted day ticket?

I did it last year at McCauley. I think it was $18 or maybe $25, but I don't remember. Best day I ever had there was two years ago, it was $13. Wednesdays are discounted, even if it's powder.

 

[KustyTheKlown]

Killington already charges $1000 for a season pass (single mountain). What is their incentive to get off of IKON?

and copper (which fucking sucks) is already ikon unlimited. i don't know who would pay $1000 for copper only. again, copper fucking sucks. and that's the terrain, not the crowds. tho the traffic and crowds on the wrong weekend day can be special.

 

[thetrailboss]

I think the only major changes you'll see are a return of upscale/expensive independent resorts to fill the shoes of Deer Valley, Beaver Creek, Aspen, Jackson, etc that have been Ikonized. I think Powdr would have a good shot at doing this. Killington, Copper, and Snowbird are all big draws in their respective regions...and in places where people are sick of crowds. Take them off Ikon and charge $1,000 a pop for a season pass (single mountain). Now you're suddenly a "unique experience" in that you're exclusive.

FWIW Aspen has all but dumped IKON. Jackson has also restricted IKON passes. So those two see themselves as in that market. It will be interesting to see if DV drops or restricts IKON. That is the only wholly owned Alterra Resort that was considered high market.

As to POWDR, as said, their passes to a single mountain are already $1,000+ per season and they love IKON. They are being hogs in wanting both ends of the market. As much as I support your idea for Snowbird, John Cumming is not going that way as much as I would hope he would see the light.

 

[Cobbold]

I did it last year at McCauley. I think it was $18 or maybe $25, but I don't remember. Best day I ever had there was two years ago, it was $13. Wednesdays are discounted, even if it's powder.

Up until I got on the epic pass, for the most paid window prices, so three years ago, occasionally would get passes from the Warren Miller films, mobile gas use to run a thing after 5 fill ups maybe ten you got a 10 dollar coupon, that’s it, full price baby

 

[thetrailboss]

Up until I got on the epic pass, for the most paid window prices, so three years ago, occasionally would get passes from the Warren Miller films, mobile gas use to run a thing after 5 fill ups maybe ten you got a 10 dollar coupon, that’s it, full price baby

How are the WM film promos out there? This year they are pretty bad here. No free days. Just BOGO deals.

 

[Edd]

and copper (which fucking sucks) is already ikon unlimited. i don't know who would pay $1000 for copper only. again, copper fucking sucks. and that's the terrain, not the crowds. tho the traffic and crowds on the wrong weekend day can be special.

Aw man I like Copper

 

[Harvey]

I think the gear (rocker) is extending the retirement age of skiing. I started at 40 and I think I skied better last year (Age 62) than ever before.

 

[Cobbold]

How are the WM film promos out there? This year they are pretty bad here. No free days. Just BOGO deals.

Don’t know, haven’t been in awhile but towards the end of me going to the film it was getting a little worse each year.

 

[Cobbold]

Aw man I like Copper

Haven’t been to copper, drove by it once, but their is a guy Bert Middleton, I think that is how he spells his name, any way he did these you tube videos of most ski areas in Colorado, each one was around five to 10 minutes long, not sure who he is, but he really like copper, thought it was better than all the other places around it, like Breckinridge, abasin, keystone, not sure if he mentioned Loveland, I guess mr Middleton and Kusty would agree to disagree