How is Belleayre operating minus

[threecy]

Would you start a business, employ more people than needed and pay them top wages and benefits and have no problem taking a loss every year? Doesn't sound like good business to me.

You missed something - your hypothetical business would also be competing with its own owners.

 

[oakapple]

I just don't understand some peoples thinking. Would you start a business, employ more people than needed and pay them top wages and benefits and have no problem taking a loss every year? Doesn't sound like good business to me.

Do we know that it takes a loss every year? The only statistics that I saw (upthread) were for the last two years, which (owing to the recession) might not have been typical. The decision to employ “more people than needed” and the scale at which they were paid were probably government policies that the management of Belleayre resort itself did not have the authority to alter.

In any case, public spaces are generally not run for profit. I mean, what is the “profit” on Central Park? How about Ellis Island or the Grand Canyon? These are not “businesses” in the normal sense of the word, but resources set aside for the public good.

I do realize that Belleayre is in a different position, because it now competes with private businesses, such as Hunter and Windham, that offer a very similar service. But that wasn’t the case when Belleayre was established: Hunter and Windham didn’t exist then (as ski resorts).

 

[jtothewang]

I feel bad for the workers at Belleayre, but the situation is much more macro than that. The state needs to liquidate assets. Golf courses, parks, pools and ski resorts. Sorry, but we are entering what will likely be a 10-20 problem. We can fix the problem, but we need to start now. Again, what is the issue with either a sale of Belleayre or a long-term, say 99-year, lease of Bealleayre. Same with golf courses, parks, pools among other.

The macro problem here is gonna be very hard to solve, but we need to start working on it now. Belleayre closing or letting employees go is not at all a solution to the problem. I say sell or lease.

 

[oakapple]

I feel bad for the workers at Belleayre, but the situation is much more macro than that. The state needs to liquidate assets. Golf courses, parks, pools and ski resorts. Sorry, but we are entering what will likely be a 10-20 problem. We can fix the problem, but we need to start now. Again, what is the issue with either a sale of Belleayre or a long-term, say 99-year, lease of Bealleayre. Same with golf courses, parks, pools among other.

The macro problem here is gonna be very hard to solve, but we need to start working on it now. Belleayre closing or letting employees go is not at all a solution to the problem. I say sell or lease.

Apparently it is written into the state constitution that those are public lands, and altering the Constitution is pretty hard. In addition, one ought to be very careful about 99-year leases. Entering into a 99-year solution to a 10 or 20-year problem can turn out to be a big mistake.

 

[goldsbar]

This is a tough one. I'm generally against government run enterprise. But, in this case, the government completely limits what the community can do. Everyone in NYC for whom a $94k salary is peanuts is benefiting from the water, etc. In that view, $1 million loss to employ all those people is pretty damn cheap (BTW, thought pretty much all ski areas lost money and hope to make it up on real estate - this is somewhat of a shrinking sport). It's not like they're attracting people to the area with runaway salaries. On the other hand, the cheap tickets do seem unfair to the other areas.

For the true haters on the thread, you really don't want Belleayre to close unless you have some sort of financial stake in the other areas. The crowds everywhere else except Plattekill are bad enough on the weekends. The loss of Belleayre would likely lead to fewer skiers and riders, not more at another resort.

 

[threecy]

For the true haters on the thread, you really don't want Belleayre to close

Who said they want Belleayre to close?

 

[mondeo]

Apparently it is written into the state constitution that those are public lands, and altering the Constitution is pretty hard. In addition, one ought to be very careful about 99-year leases. Entering into a 99-year solution to a 10 or 20-year problem can turn out to be a big mistake.

Sale or lease of the lands is against the contstitution. I still haven't seen any reasonable argument that says contracting the operation of the ski area is illegal, though.

 

[threecy]

I still haven't seen any reasonable argument that says contracting the operation of the ski area is illegal, though.

...especially considering the food and beverage operations at the ski area are already contracted out, per earlier posts here.

 

[deadheadskier]

I missed that the F&B was contracted out. Makes the 55 number seem even higher. I would've figured 5 to 10 of the 55 were from the F&B side of things.

 

[threecy]

I missed that the F&B was contracted out. Makes the 55 number seem even higher. I would've figured 5 to 10 of the 55 were from the F&B side of things.

The ski shop is also apparently contracted out.

I'm not sure what firm has them now, but the Boston Concession Group used to operate both if I'm not mistaken.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

Do we know that it takes a loss every year? The only statistics that I saw (upthread) were for the last two years, which (owing to the recession) might not have been typical. The decision to employ “more people than needed” and the scale at which they were paid were probably government policies that the management of Belleayre resort itself did not have the authority to alter.

In any case, public spaces are generally not run for profit. I mean, what is the “profit” on Central Park? How about Ellis Island or the Grand Canyon? These are not “businesses” in the normal sense of the word, but resources set aside for the public good.

I do realize that Belleayre is in a different position, because it now competes with private businesses, such as Hunter and Windham, that offer a very similar service. But that wasn’t the case when Belleayre was established: Hunter and Windham didn’t exist then (as ski resorts).

In general though (not directly directed at Bellearyes situation), parks, etc still have a budget and still should only hire and pay those according to needs, no?

 

[catskills]

The real question here is what ever Belleayre's operating lost is, does NY state make more than that up on the taxes collected on the money spent in NY versus VT?

If Belleayre closed its doors, the other ski areas in the Catskills can not handle an additional 180,000 skiers and riders. Where would those 180,000 skiers and riders go for their turns? If they go to VT, then NY not only looses a lot of tax dollars. NY state looses economic dollars to VT. Money spent in NY state is then spent and re-spent many times over. Each time the money is used to purchase something, NY state collects sales tax. Money spent in VT as opposed to NY would be a huge negative impact to the economy and NY state taxes collected.

The big picture, Belleayre brings in money to NY state from other states and makes a lot of money for NY state. Should Belleayre loose some full time employees. Probably yes. Should Belleayre loose 80 percent of its full time employees? That seems a bit extreme.

I don't believe any ski area the size of Belleayre operates with only 7 full time employees (55 - 48 = 7 employees) to run a down hill ski area, cross country ski area, summer beach, summer concerts, and many other summer events.

 

[mondeo]

The real question here is what ever Belleayre's operating lost is, does NY state make more than that up on the taxes collected on the money spent in NY versus VT?

No, that's not the question. The question should be how to most efficiently run the ski area. If you decide that it may be in the interest of the general public to offer some below market value skiing, that's one thing. But to waste money by overpaying staff and unneccesarily employing them year-round, that's just stupid. And undercutting other ski areas or dumping free tickets just because you don't have a mandate to make money is stupid as well.

 

[oakapple]

The decision to employ “more people than needed” and the scale at which they were paid were probably government policies that the management of Belleayre resort itself did not have the authority to alter.

In any case, public spaces are generally not run for profit. I mean, what is the “profit” on Central Park? How about Ellis Island or the Grand Canyon? These are not “businesses” in the normal sense of the word, but resources set aside for the public good.

In general though (not directly directed at Bellearye's situation), parks, etc still have a budget and still should only hire and pay those according to needs, no?

That’s not a bad description of how it ought to be. In reality, government-run businesses often have constraints (imposed by legislation or elected officials) that the equivalent private-sector business would not have. For instance, salaries might be tied into a state-wide pay scale, instead of being pegged to the going rate for ski-industry employees. The head of Belleayre might not have the same authority to hire and fire that a privately-run ski area CEO would have.

Heaven knows how it was decided that Belleayre should have 55 year-round full-time employees. It might have been decades ago, for reasons now lost to the sands of time. Once those people were hired, they had the same job security as government employees throughout New York state, completely detached from the economics of the ski resort.

 

[mondeo]

Heaven knows how it was decided that Belleayre should have 55 year-round full-time employees. It might have been decades ago, for reasons now lost to the sands of time. Once those people were hired, they had the same job security as government employees throughout New York state, completely detached from the economics of the ski resort.

From what I've read, it was three years ago that 48 full time positions were created.

 

[dmc]

I personally think that based upon my observations and conversations over the years that IF Belleayre closed many of those people would not go to Hunter(I can't speak for Windham and Plattekill).

Because they(and I'm not saying everyone) just don't enjoy the Hunter "vibe", it's party history and terrain. As well as the fact that people would have to pay more for tickets. I suspect PA would be the move for many the NJ/PA clients because PA resorts have similar terrain. Some from CT would probably start hitting Southern VT.
I think the bus trips may end up at Windham - I see ski club flyers all the time that talk about bus trips to either Belleayre or Windham but not Hunter.

I would just like to add that I do not think that Belleayre will close and I am not happy for people losing their jobs.

 

[threecy]

I don't believe any ski area the size of Belleayre operates with only 7 full time employees (55 - 48 = 7 employees) to run a down hill ski area, cross country ski area, summer beach, summer concerts, and many other summer events.

Where does it say Belleayre only has 7 full time employees?

There is a HUGE difference between full time seasonal and full time year-round.

 

[skidbump]

From what I've read, it was three years ago that 48 full time positions were created.

I beleive that most were full time seasonal getting laid off and then brought back again as full time seasonal,keeping there 80% + hours to keep benefits.

 

[skidbump]

Where does it say Belleayre only has 7 full time employees?

There is a HUGE difference between full time season and full time year-round.

7 full time yr round
other 48 ,if laid off would end up becomming fulltime seasonal.
again if laid off and return it would be a pay cut and a 20% hour reduction

Dont I think the hour reduction would not be during ski season.
But i really dont know that.

i also dont think These numbers haveanything to do with normal ski season ft/pt

 

[Hawkshot99]

The ski shop is also apparently contracted out.

I'm not sure what firm has them now, but the Boston Concession Group used to operate both if I'm not mistaken.

Boston Concessions is now called Center Plate. They still have the food. I believe Bellayre runs the shop themselves now. The company I work for used to have the shop there back 20+years ago though.