How to get better at skiing if you're already pretty good??

[speden]

...
I was getting quite frustrated in that I had plateaued at a certain level, which was just a bit below a level that I had been at a few years prior (when I was playing a bunch more) and I started to mentally obsess about a whole host of the the mechanics of my swing, and I was getting worse

Then one day I just kind of stopped worrying about 100 minor details at once as I was trying to swing the club and just started playing. I got better with the same amount of practice as before.

...

I think there's some science behind this. Physical skills are primarily controlled by subconscious parts of the brain. As you practice, the subconscious parts of the brain are being trained to perform the task better, even though the conscious mind has the illusion that it's controlling everything.

So if the conscious mind attempts to micromanage a physical activity, it's actually not designed for it and introduces lag and conflicting instructions into the process, like trying to play an internet game on a slow connection. So naturally you end up performing worse. This is what happens when a coach ices a kicker by calling a time out. The kicker would normally let the efficient subconscious processes handle the kicking mechanics, but when he thinks about how important the kick is, his conscious mind tries to step in to control the mechanics and then the kick is missed.

 

[riverc0il]

Some counter points here. But to answer your first question... Mostly technique but technique involves the brain, not just physical.

Racers don't take lessons, they receive training. Pro level racers receive feedback on every run they take when not free skiing. You cannot equate the two.

I don't think any one suggested someone would jump to a whole new level with only one lesson. My comment asking if anyone has gotten to top performance level with lessons was specifically plural, not "a lesson".

You say that watching and imitating others will help but it could only go so far. I am a direct contradiction of that remark. I received basic race training in college, a base level foundation on a very low level bottom feeder race team. But I had never skied ungroomed essentially in my life up until that point, not a great skier at all. Never took a lesson and now I ski the entire mountain and own it. Lessons didn't get me here, I got myself to that point.

I am not saying don't take lessons. I think they are valuable to a point. But at some point, I think if you want to take it to the "next level" and hone top skills, you have to own it. I think lessons are very valuable in creating a foundation, in learning the fundamentals on which to build, etc. I don't think correcting small technique flaws can get someone to the top level. I think giving someone the skills to diagnose their own problems can... but that happens when you are building the basics.

But I am honestly asking... not being flip or felicitous... I honestly want to hear from someone that considers their skiing skills top level, ski any where, ski anything, ski any condition, great ripping skier with good technique and control, that got there through taking lots of lessons.

Are we talking about mental aspect? Or technique? If it's about technique, lesson is the best way to achieve it.

There're lessons, then there're lessons.

If Bode Miller and Lindsey Von can benefit from "lessons", so can anybody else. The trick is finding the right instructor. And we're not talking about one single lesson either.

Also, I seriously doubt anyone can "jump" to a whole new level over ONE (or even a few) lessons! Especially in the higher level, it takes a much smaller changes to make a difference in performance. In my younger days, I was a half way decent competitive badminton player (nationnally ranked). But to make a change in my smash, it took nearly half a YEAR of 3 days/week of working with a coach to get it dialed in. The result was pretty significant. Much more powerful with the same effort. I can only imagine to fine tune a movement on skis will not be any simpler. It'll take time and takes focus.

Watching and imitating others will help but it could only go so far. A lot of times, small ingrained bad movements are hard to self-detect and will inhibit progress. That's when a good instructor will be of great help. (Mind you, that "instructor" doesn't have to be a paid one. But it still would be a focused working on technique with outside guidian)

Whether a recreational skier care to work so haard to improve is an entirely different matter.

But left alone, most people tend to "plateau" at whatever the level they last had intensive instruction on.

 

[MadMadWorld]

Some counter points here. But to answer your first question... Mostly technique but technique involves the brain, not just physical.

Racers don't take lessons, they receive training. Pro level racers receive feedback on every run they take when not free skiing. You cannot equate the two.

I don't think any one suggested someone would jump to a whole new level with only one lesson. My comment asking if anyone has gotten to top performance level with lessons was specifically plural, not "a lesson".

You say that watching and imitating others will help but it could only go so far. I am a direct contradiction of that remark. I received basic race training in college, a base level foundation on a very low level bottom feeder race team. But I had never skied ungroomed essentially in my life up until that point, not a great skier at all. Never took a lesson and now I ski the entire mountain and own it. Lessons didn't get me here, I got myself to that point.

I am not saying don't take lessons. I think they are valuable to a point. But at some point, I think if you want to take it to the "next level" and hone top skills, you have to own it. I think lessons are very valuable in creating a foundation, in learning the fundamentals on which to build, etc. I don't think correcting small technique flaws can get someone to the top level. I think giving someone the skills to diagnose their own problems can... but that happens when you are building the basics.

But I am honestly asking... not being flip or felicitous... I honestly want to hear from someone that considers their skiing skills top level, ski any where, ski anything, ski any condition, great ripping skier with good technique and control, that got there through taking lots of lessons.

I would like to think that I am at that level. I have never skied with anyone on here so I don't know much weight my opinion has but here is my take. I started teaching skiing at the age of 15 at and was probably an advanced skier at best at the time. I taught all through high school and college at multiple mountains. In that time, my skiing ability steadily improved while my technical knowledge improved dramatically. In those 10 years, I probably had well over 100 clinical hours with level II and level III instructors (including a few hours with PSIA clinicians). I can honestly say that my skiing didn't dramatically improve until I started challenging myself by skiing with people and terrain above my ability. I can also say that without the technical knowledge I learned from clinics, I would have never been able to make such big strides as quickly as I did after skiing with people who were better than me. The basic technical knowledge I had learned allowed me to breakdown and understand the movements and techniques that others were doing.

To sum things up, I think a healthy dose of both can be very helpful. If you can find a ski buddy that can challenge you as well as help you breakdown techniques you are set!

 

[JimG.]

I would like to think that I am at that level. I have never skied with anyone on here so I don't know much weight my opinion has but here is my take. I started teaching skiing at the age of 15 at and was probably an advanced skier at best at the time. I taught all through high school and college at multiple mountains. In that time, my skiing ability steadily improved while my technical knowledge improved dramatically. In those 10 years, I probably had well over 100 clinical hours with level II and level III instructors (including a few hours with PSIA clinicians). I can honestly say that my skiing didn't dramatically improve until I started challenging myself by skiing with people and terrain above my ability. I can also say that without the technical knowledge I learned from clinics, I would have never been able to make such big strides as quickly as I did after skiing with people who were better than me. The basic technical knowledge I had learned allowed me to breakdown and understand the movements and techniques that others were doing.

To sum things up, I think a healthy dose of both can be very helpful. If you can find a ski buddy that can challenge you as well as help you breakdown techniques you are set!

I think this is fair and it describes my experiences very closely. Much of the knowledge I gained from clinics and techniques learned on snow while I was an instructor and then coach did not really take hold until I challenged myself to make those things happen consistently, then on terrain that was difficult for me to handle. Alot of skiing is counter-intuitive...I think sometimes you need to push yourself onto terrain that will force you to apply technique until you actually feel how your skis react to gain the confidence to make those moves instinctive.

You really need to get that "feel" in a variety of conditions and situations to approach being an expert.

 

[Bene288]

PS. I wonder if ice skating helps? I tried ice skating last year for the first since I was a kid (probably 15 years) and I was horrible uncomfortable. I kind of thought they were similar tacks but I felt so awkward on ice skates I was shocked.

I can personally say that knowing how to skate made me a good skier. However I don't know if skiing would make you a good ice skater. I jumped into skiing in my late teens after playing hockey my whole life. I got good really quick. It definitely helps with agility and balance. Stopping and those on edge carving/GS turns were so unbelievably natural to me when I started to ski. But as far as woods and bumps, I don't see much similarity. Obviously the more agility/balance and strength you have, the better you'll perform. I'm in the same spot as you guys. I'd consider myself advanced, but find myself struggling on the boiler plate and hard bumps.

 

[KevinF]

Some counter points here. But to answer your first question... Mostly technique but technique involves the brain, not just physical.

Racers don't take lessons, they receive training. Pro level racers receive feedback on every run they take when not free skiing. You cannot equate the two.

I don't think any one suggested someone would jump to a whole new level with only one lesson. My comment asking if anyone has gotten to top performance level with lessons was specifically plural, not "a lesson".

You say that watching and imitating others will help but it could only go so far. I am a direct contradiction of that remark. I received basic race training in college, a base level foundation on a very low level bottom feeder race team. But I had never skied ungroomed essentially in my life up until that point, not a great skier at all. Never took a lesson and now I ski the entire mountain and own it. Lessons didn't get me here, I got myself to that point.

I am not saying don't take lessons. I think they are valuable to a point. But at some point, I think if you want to take it to the "next level" and hone top skills, you have to own it. I think lessons are very valuable in creating a foundation, in learning the fundamentals on which to build, etc. I don't think correcting small technique flaws can get someone to the top level. I think giving someone the skills to diagnose their own problems can... but that happens when you are building the basics.

But I am honestly asking... not being flip or felicitous... I honestly want to hear from someone that considers their skiing skills top level, ski any where, ski anything, ski any condition, great ripping skier with good technique and control, that got there through taking lots of lessons.

A couple years ago I was trying to learn how to ski bumps and other non-groomed terrain. I would take periodic lessons from various area's. I often asked on EpicSki (I have more of a history there...) for recommendations for a particular instructor, etc. And the lessons helped to a certain degree, but it really wasn't "clicking", and I was frankly thinking that I had reached my plateau.

About that time, EpicSki started holding their ESA's (EpicSki Academy). Four day ski clinics hosted by the guys (and gals...) who are the trainers of the trainers of the L3's. I attended three or four of those, and those are the foundation of my technical knowledge of skiing. Watching video of me from before the first ESA and now is laughable, as I don't even remotely resemble myself from a few years ago.

I can't remember the last time I bothered to take a traditional ski lesson now. I feel pretty confident that I can ski just about anywhere and get down safely, and usually make it look reasonably good. There are things I still suck at and I have my good days and bad days.

I won't say that after finishing my first or second ESA that I was suddenly "king of the ski world" or anything, but the immediate improvement after each one was remarkable, and confidence associated with the improvement allowed me to spend more and more time in un-groomed terrain, which then just feeds the cycle.

I can say that without the instruction provided by the ESA that I'd be nowhere nearly as good a skier as I am today.

 

[kingdom-tele]

DMC and Riv said it best.Ski with somebody better than you that you can stay behind without being out of control.

Google mirror neurons. It is limited in the same way visualization of movement is limited. Our motor patterns are enhanced by the feedback from the nerves that give us our body awareness/proprioception. It is helpful but having more direct information whether it be verbal or through touch expedites the process.

I think there's some science behind this. Physical skills are primarily controlled by subconscious parts of the brain. As you practice, the subconscious parts of the brain are being trained to perform the task better, even though the conscious mind has the illusion that it's controlling everything.

So if the conscious mind attempts to micromanage a physical activity, it's actually not designed for it and introduces lag and conflicting instructions into the process...

higher cortical function is slower. which is why people need to slow down to make effective changes in their motor programming.
It is no different than why you get dressed the same way every day. The established motor plans are intact, from the cerebellar maps to the synaptic pathways, your neuro system is lazy and will continue to choose the established motor plan. It is really pretty phenomenal, the lower cortex has already made its motor choices based on previous input and experience. The advice to ski and ski a lot has prudence in the sense that it gives you thousands of inputs to digest and base the next motor plan on. However, the point is to learn, to speed the process up. We have to be willing to slow down, to first feel what our motor choices are, where they are limited, to use the higher cortical function to select, or, as in most cases, to de-select motor recruitment that is inhibiting or movement. Once you have a feel to you can go as fast as you desire and still maintain the sense of efficiency/effortlessness we see in expert level anyone

As an aside, relying on subconcious motor plans is what makes automatic movement "zen" as someone said. But that subconcsiousness also includes our very lower reflexive systems. Ironically, it is the ability to shut this system off that improves the quality of our movement. It is especially disruptive in sliding sports, your nervous system is designed to make sure you survive, it will lock up your trunk like a brick as soon as there is information you are moving and there is potential to f yourself up. You can override this reflexive muscle tone but only if you are aware if it to begin with.

the notion that high level movement needs to be done without consciousness is a choice, because it feels good, but it is false, our brain is exceptional, our awareness can be exceptional, but is a learned process. I think it is always interesting to hear from expert level anything about their movement assessments, they are totally aware of so much more than non expert level people, they can recount their body orientation almost completely amidst highly complex movement, incredible stuff.

don't be afraid to slow down and feel what you do first, feel how it changes as the setting changes to more challenging. it is the most fruitful experience. Instructors should hopefully be giving you ways to help feel what you do and then how to modify it, its the difference between controlling yourself or allowing lower motor control centers (which are faster) to control you.

 

[MadMadWorld]

Google mirror neurons. It is limited in the same way visualization of movement is limited. Our motor patterns are enhanced by the feedback from the nerves that give us our body awareness/proprioception. It is helpful but having more direct information whether it be verbal or through touch expedites the process.



higher cortical function is slower. which is why people need to slow down to make effective changes in their motor programming.
It is no different than why you get dressed the same way every day. The established motor plans are intact, from the cerebellar maps to the synaptic pathways, your neuro system is lazy and will continue to choose the established motor plan. It is really pretty phenomenal, the lower cortex has already made its motor choices based on previous input and experience. The advice to ski and ski a lot has prudence in the sense that it gives you thousands of inputs to digest and base the next motor plan on. However, the point is to learn, to speed the process up. We have to be willing to slow down, to first feel what our motor choices are, where they are limited, to use the higher cortical function to select, or, as in most cases, to de-select motor recruitment that is inhibiting or movement. Once you have a feel to you can go as fast as you desire and still maintain the sense of efficiency/effortlessness we see in expert level anyone

As an aside, relying on subconcious motor plans is what makes automatic movement "zen" as someone said. But that subconcsiousness also includes our very lower reflexive systems. Ironically, it is the ability to shut this system off that improves the quality of our movement. It is especially disruptive in sliding sports, your nervous system is designed to make sure you survive, it will lock up your trunk like a brick as soon as there is information you are moving and there is potential to f yourself up. You can override this reflexive muscle tone but only if you are aware if it to begin with.

the notion that high level movement needs to be done without consciousness is a choice, because it feels good, but it is false, our brain is exceptional, our awareness can be exceptional, but is a learned process. I think it is always interesting to hear from expert level anything about their movement assessments, they are totally aware of so much more than non expert level people, they can recount their body orientation almost completely amidst highly complex movement, incredible stuff.

don't be afraid to slow down and feel what you do first, feel how it changes as the setting changes to more challenging. it is the most fruitful experience. Instructors should hopefully be giving you ways to help feel what you do and then how to modify it, its the difference between controlling yourself or allowing lower motor control centers (which are faster) to control you.

Wow...someone had their coffee this morning. Well said. Your points about experts in any field are right on the mark. I always loved hearing interviews with Tony Gwynn and how he described the way he got so good that he could see the movement of the laces on the baseball as it was coming towards him (although having 20-10 vision probably didn't hurt either).

 

[kingdom-tele]

slow start to the morning.

in baseball I have always preferred pitcher interviews, maddux, ryan, dickey, the vets who had to make adjustments. exceptional awareness. Check out Judo masters, it doesn't look like they are doing anything at all, yet transfer the energy to throw a human.

genetic endowment is also helpful to a degree (Mr. Gwynn's eyes)

 

[Warp Daddy]

I had that epiphany with golf a number of years ago, or atleast I thought I did

I was getting quite frustrated in that I had plateaued at a certain level, which was just a bit below a level that I had been at a few years prior (when I was playing a bunch more) and I started to mentally obsess about a whole host of the the mechanics of my swing, and I was getting worse

Then one day I just kind of stopped worrying about 100 minor details at once as I was trying to swing the club and just started playing. I got better with the same amount of practice as before.

Sometimes I feel that the same thing can happen with one's skiing, they start to way over think every turn (hand position, upper body position, hip position, angulation, ankle flex, etc, etc, etc) and it's far more than the brain can actively do at once (atleast it is for my brain ) So when i'm working on something on the hill, I just try and focus on 1 specific thing and let the rest happen, and for me that keeps me maybe not progressing(that age thing I am starting to realize does begin to factor in a bit ), but atleast no regressing

For me atleast I find that the old KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) principle really helps define my "zen" of downhill snowsliding these days

I agree with this i simply started skiing with much better skiers than i and followed their movements down the hill. Had to let go and frankly put my mind ( what little there is left of it ) on cruise control and trust my instincts and muscle memory . Did this at age 52 so really had to wrestle with the fear thing until i LET GO and just let it happen ,


Hard to explain ,but simply had the strong desire to do this all my life and after 20 yrs of XC
i think i had balance skills and conditioning. The speed issue was initially daunting UNTIL i started following these guys down the hill. So at near 70 now i have no real formal training , can hold my own on most trails but obviously many of you with quicker reflex response would bury me in the bumps and trees where i absolutely rot !
R
But hey that is OK . I am deleriously happy to still be out there and rockin what i do best .
Never ever gonna b an expert but that fine , I AM a skier and that is awesome for me .

Thanks to Doc Jeff and others i too had a golf epiphany this year , DIS engaged the brain and had my best year ever and broke thru one of my Long Term goals. Twice in one week

 

[kingdom-tele]

congrats WD. you have found a new enjoyment, thats the whole goal in life.

Its a tad ironic though, you had to use consciousness (higher cortical function) to override the the feeling that you weren't letting go to have the sensation that it is automatic. I am not writing to be arguementative. It is something I hear often. It is a parable we tell ourselves, I am just flowing, instinctive. Yet the very quality we are seeking in movement relys on being able to shut off the very instinctive/reflexive motor commands that are preventing that sensation. Keeping it simple isn't quite so simple. Being satisfied with our movement choices is a wonderful feeling, but for those wanting to have a different quality of movement in variable contexts, they can get there more quickly with awareness training, not less, IMO.

 

[mister moose]

That's probably what you heard or read but the truth is you don't want to look far ahead all the time. Instead you need to train yourself to scan. Any time you're doing something while moving, scan three zones with your vision. The zones are far, middle and close. Repeat these over and over again anytime you can to practice. It will help your mogul and tree skiing a lot.

This makes a ton of sense, and it's the first time I've seen it articulated so well. I never got the looking 4-6 bumps ahead thing, and I was constantly shifting my attention from far to close and back again, as needed. I was scanning and didn't realize it. Which is funny, because with all the instrument flight training I've had, scanning is drilled into me. I'm going to try being more aware of that next time out.

Which illustrates another part of the puzzle to the OP. Once you get to being a competent parallel skier, advances come in small pieces, and from many different sources. The more sources you have - books, watching better skiers, lessons/coaching, days on hill, talking aout technique... the more frequent your advancement will be. You just saw me become just a little better here today.

But I am honestly asking... not being flip or felicitous... I honestly want to hear from someone that considers their skiing skills top level, ski any where, ski anything, ski any condition, great ripping skier with good technique and control, that got there through taking lots of lessons.

Well, yes and no.

I've had quite a few lessons growing up. As I got older, they turned more to coaching than formal lessons. I drilled on fundementals until they were flawless. I mention this because fundementals teach you to feel what's going on, and you build on that strong foundation.

You have to realize the nature of PSIA. It is to teach beginners through advanced parallel. They teach a one form is best approach, and distill it to robo-skier final form. Teaching experts to ski the bump zipperline, snap a 360, or shave a tenth off your race time is not something they do.

One of the biggest advancement periods I had was, not surprisingly, skiing 120 days a year getting regular coaching. Coaching is lessons, right? Also, on recent ski club trips a daily lesson was included in the package. If it wasn't a powder day I usually went, and the advanced group would be given a damn fine instructor. There's always something to be learned from a fresh set of eyes housed in an accomplished skier.

One is icy stuff. On icy days most people are scraping around.

This is one of very few places I think equipment trumps technique. If your edges are rounded over or gouged most of the length, or if your ski is tortionally soft so the tip and tail twist flatter and wash out when pressure is applied, you aren't going to carve on icy hardpack.

Other is bumps and woods. I manage bumps fine, and I will ski any woods there are the steeper it is the more exciting it is for me. But I don't really do it fast.

If you are only 'managing' bumps, you don't have the foundation to go faster. (Although I think all of us at some point hit a wall on muscle response time) Bumps done well look seductively easy, and are really exceptionally hard. You need the balance, muscle memory, strength and technique to all fall into place. There is no shaped or rocker ski yet invented to save you in the bumps.

Skiing with skiers better than you helps, so does just watching from the trail or lift. But few good skiers can articulate just what it is they are doing. You need more input than just visual. Not to mention that some of the technique is invisible, or nearly so. (I like to call it magic)

I have yet to see any awesome skiers that don't have legs like tree trunks and the cardio of a runner. I have yet to meet any awesome skiers that ski 10-20 days per year. If you aren't prepared to put in the time, you will plateau at the level the time you do put in brings you to. Of course, increasing the quality of the time spent helps. You need to seek that out.

Lastly, how many times a day do you fall? Not falling = not learning. Push yourself, with direction, on one aspect, most of the time.

 

[jimmywilson69]

A lot of good stuff in here. I have pondered taking an advanced lesson and did 2 years ago. I didn't really like what they were teaching me. I know my "form" might not be perfect, but I am pretty confident that I ski a lot of challenging terrain.

I'd love to do a mogul camp sometime, because that is my weakest area. I know when I'm not skiing them the proper, so I think the only way to get better is to ski them more often.

 

[kingslug]

As far as getting to a higher level with just one lesson..can't really quantify that as again..too many variables. An all day clinic on the other hand can be very helpful...for the very advanced, hiring a guide might be a good option in areas that you can. The best lesson I ever had was an all day guided tour/lesson at Jackson. We specified moguls and spent 7 hours touring and bashing moguls of every kind. Now I just ski with those who are better than me (you know who you are).....but..I did meet a very good instructor at Hunter who I am going to hire for the day to help me out a little more in the bumps..older guy who just rips them, very smooth...
And if you can find him...Glen Plake got his PSIA level 3 last year..at Hunter!...bet you could learn a thing or two from him..

 

[Scruffy]

Google mirror neurons. It is limited in the same way visualization of movement is limited. Our motor patterns are enhanced by the feedback from the nerves that give us our body awareness/proprioception. It is helpful but having more direct information whether it be verbal or through touch expedites the process.



higher cortical function is slower. which is why people need to slow down to make effective changes in their motor programming.
It is no different than why you get dressed the same way every day. The established motor plans are intact, from the cerebellar maps to the synaptic pathways, your neuro system is lazy and will continue to choose the established motor plan. It is really pretty phenomenal, the lower cortex has already made its motor choices based on previous input and experience. The advice to ski and ski a lot has prudence in the sense that it gives you thousands of inputs to digest and base the next motor plan on. However, the point is to learn, to speed the process up. We have to be willing to slow down, to first feel what our motor choices are, where they are limited, to use the higher cortical function to select, or, as in most cases, to de-select motor recruitment that is inhibiting or movement. Once you have a feel to you can go as fast as you desire and still maintain the sense of efficiency/effortlessness we see in expert level anyone

As an aside, relying on subconcious motor plans is what makes automatic movement "zen" as someone said. But that subconcsiousness also includes our very lower reflexive systems. Ironically, it is the ability to shut this system off that improves the quality of our movement. It is especially disruptive in sliding sports, your nervous system is designed to make sure you survive, it will lock up your trunk like a brick as soon as there is information you are moving and there is potential to f yourself up. You can override this reflexive muscle tone but only if you are aware if it to begin with.

the notion that high level movement needs to be done without consciousness is a choice, because it feels good, but it is false, our brain is exceptional, our awareness can be exceptional, but is a learned process. I think it is always interesting to hear from expert level anything about their movement assessments, they are totally aware of so much more than non expert level people, they can recount their body orientation almost completely amidst highly complex movement, incredible stuff.

don't be afraid to slow down and feel what you do first, feel how it changes as the setting changes to more challenging. it is the most fruitful experience. Instructors should hopefully be giving you ways to help feel what you do and then how to modify it, its the difference between controlling yourself or allowing lower motor control centers (which are faster) to control you.

Great post, thanks.

Some of us are getting hung up on the terminology. For the sake of this discussion, lets say "lessons" means any communication received in the pursuit of improving any aspect of the sport of skiing, not just some low level beginner instruction from a hired PSIA hand at the resort lessons desk. Could be a typical paid for lesson, advanced Race Camp, Race Coach, Mogul Workshop, a Friend who happens to be a top level skier, etc..

 

[bobbutts]

Does a ski-off against one of Killington's top skiers count? Singh?

 

[Smellytele]

Lastly, how many times a day do you fall? Not falling = not learning. Push yourself, with direction, on one aspect, most of the time.

It isn't how many times I fall it is how many times I almost fall that matters. If I can correct and recover from the fall am I not also pushing myself?

 

[mister moose]

It isn't how many times I fall it is how many times I almost fall that matters. If I can correct and recover from the fall am I not also pushing myself?

yeah, ok........ let's call that a 'virtual fall'.

 

[Scruffy]

This makes a ton of sense, and it's the first time I've seen it articulated so well. I never got the looking 4-6 bumps ahead thing, and I was constantly shifting my attention from far to close and back again, as needed. I was scanning and didn't realize it. Which is funny, because with all the instrument flight training I've had, scanning is drilled into me. I'm going to try being more aware of that next time out.

Which illustrates another part of the puzzle to the OP. Once you get to being a competent parallel skier, advances come in small pieces, and from many different sources. The more sources you have - books, watching better skiers, lessons/coaching, days on hill, talking aout technique... the more frequent your advancement will be. You just saw me become just a little better here today.



Well, yes and no.

I've had quite a few lessons growing up. As I got older, they turned more to coaching than formal lessons. I drilled on fundementals until they were flawless. I mention this because fundementals teach you to feel what's going on, and you build on that strong foundation.

You have to realize the nature of PSIA. It is to teach beginners through advanced parallel. They teach a one form is best approach, and distill it to robo-skier final form. Teaching experts to ski the bump zipperline, snap a 360, or shave a tenth off your race time is not something they do.

One of the biggest advancement periods I had was, not surprisingly, skiing 120 days a year getting regular coaching. Coaching is lessons, right? Also, on recent ski club trips a daily lesson was included in the package. If it wasn't a powder day I usually went, and the advanced group would be given a damn fine instructor. There's always something to be learned from a fresh set of eyes housed in an accomplished skier.



This is one of very few places I think equipment trumps technique. If your edges are rounded over or gouged most of the length, or if your ski is tortionally soft so the tip and tail twist flatter and wash out when pressure is applied, you aren't going to carve on icy hardpack.



If you are only 'managing' bumps, you don't have the foundation to go faster. (Although I think all of us at some point hit a wall on muscle response time) Bumps done well look seductively easy, and are really exceptionally hard. You need the balance, muscle memory, strength and technique to all fall into place. There is no shaped or rocker ski yet invented to save you in the bumps.

Skiing with skiers better than you helps, so does just watching from the trail or lift. But few good skiers can articulate just what it is they are doing. You need more input than just visual. Not to mention that some of the technique is invisible, or nearly so. (I like to call it magic)

I have yet to see any awesome skiers that don't have legs like tree trunks and the cardio of a runner. I have yet to meet any awesome skiers that ski 10-20 days per year. If you aren't prepared to put in the time, you will plateau at the level the time you do put in brings you to. Of course, increasing the quality of the time spent helps. You need to seek that out.

Lastly, how many times a day do you fall? Not falling = not learning. Push yourself, with direction, on one aspect, most of the time.

Mostly good points, just a few I'd take issue with:

You have to realize the nature of PSIA. It is to teach beginners through advanced parallel. They teach a one form is best approach, and distill it to robo-skier final form. Teaching experts to ski the bump zipperline, snap a 360, or shave a tenth off your race time is not something they do.

Some can do both. I've been in Race Camps with top level Race instructors that also earn a living doing the run of the mill PSIA stuff,
so you can't pigeon hole a PSIA person.

This is one of very few places I think equipment trumps technique. If your edges are rounded over or gouged most of the length, or if your ski is tortionally soft so the tip and tail twist flatter and wash out when pressure is applied, you aren't going to carve on icy hardpack.

Of course you need skis in tune and that includes your edges; however carving on ice can elude even the most well equipped skier.
Here is perfect example of were "lessons" would help. If you can carve on soft or edgeable snow, but fail on real Vermont Blue Race course ice; I'd be willing to bet that you could practice on your own for years without seeing much improvement. There are subtle movement changes needed to carve ice over carving something more easily edgeable. ( of course you could probably self educate yourself through reading about it, watching video instruction and taking it the time on the hill to work on it ). However the right coach can get you there quicker.

Lastly, how many times a day do you fall? Not falling = not learning. Push yourself, with direction, on one aspect, most of the time.

I'd be careful with that old saw. I make it my day's mission not to fall. Falling while skiing can be dangerous for your health and skiing habit. :lol: Yeah yeah, I know there is "the correct way to fall" and all that crap, and you can get hurt without even falling, been there done that...

 

[snowmonster]

Once in a while, a thread comes out on Alpinezone that makes it really worthwhile to hang out on these boards. Lots of great information here. Thank you, gents!