So what is everyone going to do this upcoming season for passes?

[JimG.]

I think it's largely a result of ASC gasping for increased skier visits to boost the sale prices of it's resorts with the bargain basement pass prices of the last several years.

Hey, I like free too.

This final brilliant play by doomed ASC may have damaged margins for ski areas (at least here in the east) for years to come. People won't pay prices that are needed to maintain operations and upkeep. Sure, with all the big buyouts in the past months there is an infusion of cash. Alot of folks are pretty happy right now.

Let's talk in 5 years when the big buyouts/marketing booms die down. That's when the rubber will hit the road. These resorts will either be owned by other companies who have even more grave financial issues to deal with, or skiers will be paying alot more for season passes.

Or they won't operate at all.

Remember, it wasn't too long ago that gas cost $1.50 a gallon.

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

Hey, I like free too.

This final brilliant play by doomed ASC may have damaged margins for ski areas (at least here in the east) for years to come. People won't pay prices that are needed to maintain operations and upkeep. Sure, with all the big buyouts in the past months there is an infusion of cash. Alot of folks are pretty happy right now.

Let's talk in 5 years when the big buyouts/marketing booms die down. That's when the rubber will hit the road. These resorts will either be owned by other companies who have even more grave financial issues to deal with, or skiers will be paying alot more for season passes.

Or they won't operate at all.

Remember, it wasn't too long ago that gas cost $1.50 a gallon.

Where's that dead horse emoticon?:smash:

 

[JimG.]

Where's that dead horse emoticon?:smash:

I expected better from you.

This is the one issue from that whole topic that still blows me away.

I think I'm just getting old.

 

[Vortex]

Jim 'm late in on this.... how do feel about asc and the new companies and how they are handling prices? :argue::smash:;-)


This won't be over when we have proof one way of the other either:grin:

BTW I agree with most of what your saying. Just prefer to see you lose the fight and not me..

 

[JimG.]

Fortunately for me, I'm no more than a guest at the affected hills and not a regular, so I can kind of sit back and watch with objectivity.

So I really don't care who wins or who loses...to me, you can't lose by going skiing anyway, just by sitting home doing nothing.

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

I expected better from you.

This is the one issue from that whole topic that still blows me away.

I think I'm just getting old.

Where's the white flag emoticon when I need it? Like BobR just said, time will tell...so far Boyne seems to agree with the tactic ASC employed...and calling it their "final play" is misleading...the discount pass program has been around for years...and from what I've heard kept ASC around longer than they would have lasted without it...so not a final, desperate act thown out last season...but a strategy rolled out what, 4 maybe 5 years ago. Besides, the idea came from the west...Winter Park was the first to roll it out in 96/97 or 97/98. ASC or not, the idea would have come east eventually. I see discount pass, I think higher visits and more incremental revenue...you seem to favor higher pass prices as the only solution to the ski resort woes...charge fewer people more money. Low cost leader vs specialty provider...its all debated out in Competitive Business Strategy by Micheal Porter (Harvard B-School professor/author)...we don't need to keep :smash: it out here...our lab has unfolded before us...Killington's new approach vs the Boyne approach. We'll review in a few seasons...class dismissed. :lol:

 

[JimG.]

Where's the white flag emoticon when I need it? Like BobR just said, time will tell...so far Boyne seems to agree with the tactic ASC employed...and calling it their "final play" is misleading...the discount pass program has been around for years...and from what I've heard kept ASC around longer than they would have lasted without it...so not a final, desperate act thown out last season...but a strategy rolled out what, 4 maybe 5 years ago. Besides, the idea came from the west...Winter Park was the first to roll it out in 96/97 or 97/98. ASC or not, the idea would have come east eventually. I see discount pass, I think higher visits and more incremental revenue...you seem to favor higher pass prices as the only solution to the ski resort woes...charge fewer people more money. Low cost leader vs specialty provider...its all debated out in Competitive Business Strategy by Micheal Porter (Harvard B-School professor/author)...we don't need to keep :smash: it out here...our lab has unfolded before us...Killington's new approach vs the Boyne approach. We'll review in a few seasons...class dismissed. :lol:

Careful, don't put words in my mouth. I don't "favor" higher pass prices.

I simply don't understand the math that says pass prices have to be discounted to draw skiers. Stowe doesn't seem to have a problem with that. Is Stowe a specialty provider?

I don't think so...it's just a kick ass ski hill.

 

[Vortex]

Sk Stated the prices were set by the Asc folks before the sale took place, not enough time to do all that post purchase. No doubt they were in the loop.

The black out days of the Silver pass are IMO just stats that were viewed from scanning passes for the last few years.

I give Ak some credit here. Kind of his words/ thoughts ... families did not want as many black out days during the holidays' so they gave back a few holiday dates.

X-mass week has not been as busy as those peak Sat over the last few years as I remember. Well give and take.

I think the Maine passes are fair, unilimited, silver and Bronze. I do feel the kids pass is a bit high, (good deal if you live in Maine though, wow they thought of the locals) but I look at the big picture and overall it works.

Eastcoastpowderhound. Don't sell Jim short. He is a sales manger. He gets sell and collect.

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

Careful, don't put words in my mouth. I don't "favor" higher pass prices.

I simply don't understand the math that says pass prices have to be discounted to draw skiers. Stowe doesn't seem to have a problem with that. Is Stowe a specialty provider?

I don't think so...it's just a kick ass ski hill.

Hey...don't put any in my mouth either...I never said they HAVE to discount prices to draw skiers...its just one strategy...and just because it didn't rescue ASC doesn't mean its not a valid one.
I can't comment on Stowe...haven't been there for 20 years and have no knowledge of their financials, operations, etc.
Would it be safe to say that you promote higher pass prices as the path to financial success for the eastern resort market?

 

[JimG.]

Eastcoastpowderhound. Don't sell Jim short. He is a sales manger. He gets sell and collect.

He's not Bob...ECPH is one of my favorites to debate with.

More important than sell and collect, I want value. For me and my customers. I know I'll never please everyone and trying to do so is counterproductive. And I know that no matter where I ski, there will be issues that bother me.

I want a good deal, and price is just a part of the equation. I'll pay more to get more value.

 

[JimG.]

Would it be safe to say that you promote higher pass prices as the path to financial success for the eastern resort market?

Nope...read my response to BobR.

Prices are only part of the marketing equation. I promote charging the amount of money per skier needed to maintain the product and the image you have promoted. The price should reflect the value that's given in return. And of course that is subjective.

If I promoted higher prices, I would want smaller hills to charge alot too. That doesn't fit the value equation. To me, it's just as ridiculous for a small hill to charge $1000 for a season pass as it is for a big resort to charge $299. The value propositions do not match the prices charged.

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

Sk Stated the prices were set by the Asc folks before the sale took place, not enough time to do all that post purchase. No doubt they were in the loop.
.

I'm pretty sure SK's post said Boyne didn't deserve all the credit...that the management teams at SR and SL were very much involved in the process, Dana Bullen and John Diller (SR and SL respectively)...not the CEO, CFO, and controller of ASC...the sale of the resorts was announced well before the pass prices...ASC management was 'lame duck" before the pass prices were announced.

Eastcoastpowderhound. Don't sell Jim short. He is a sales manger. He gets sell and collect.

I'm not selling him short...just strongly feel that there is more than one way to make money in the resort business.

 

[Vortex]

When I said ASC I ment Sunday River and Sugarloaf management. Nothing at all with corparate HQ. Sk did say it was the resorts that set the prices. Its on the River board somewhere. I like to debate with Jim as well. He presents his points well.

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

Nope...read my response to BobR.

Prices are only part of the marketing equation. I promote charging the amount of money per skier needed to maintain the product and the image you have promoted. The price should reflect the value that's given in return. And of course that is subjective.

If I promoted higher prices, I would want smaller hills to charge alot too. That doesn't fit the value equation. To me, it's just as ridiculous for a small hill to charge $1000 for a season pass as it is for a big resort to charge $299. The value propositions do not match the prices charged.

Ahh...we overlapped a bit. Okay, I see where you're coming from in value. I'm coming from an incremental sales...loss leader approach. Try not to burn me at the stake for this..but as an example, the condoms I buy can be found at Rite-Aid for $11.99 per dozen...or I can get them at WalMart for $4.98/dz...for the exact same product...so no change in value other than the location, shopping experience, etc...but if the $12/dz and the $5/dz condoms feel exactly the same I'd be crazy to pay $12 at RiteAid...unless I was out and the wife brought a hot friend home...nearest WalMart is 1/2 hr, RiteAid is 5 min. But...while I'm at WalMart I don't just buy the condoms...we also buy laundry soap, cat litter, shampoo, toothpaste...etc etc etc...by the time we leave we never spend less than $100 and I always buy at least 2 dzn condoms. If I had to buy them at Rite Aid, I'd only buy one dozen and maybe a soda but nothing else. The spirit of the argument is, more people are going to go to walmart and while they're there, they'll typically buy more than just what they came for. don't get me wrong, i don't want Sunday River to look like the WalMart in NConway or Windham...but they've been able to maintain the quality of the sking surface and a pretty darned good experience despite the majority of resort revenue being sucked out to Park City...so imagine what boyne will be able to do when they're able to hang on to more of the revenue from SR and won't be saddled with the credit card like interest rates that ASC had. The more people they can get to the hill, the more incremental revenue they can siphon from them...and there's a lot of margin in a $2.75 hot chocolate and $9 cheeseburger.

 

[madskier6]

...but if the $12/dz and the $5/dz condoms feel exactly the same I'd be crazy to pay $12 at RiteAid...unless I was out and the wife brought a hot friend home...nearest WalMart is 1/2 hr, RiteAid is 5 min.

WOW. What kind of a marriage do you have? Regular threesomes?

 

[JimG.]

Ahh...we overlapped a bit. Okay, I see where you're coming from in value. I'm coming from an incremental sales...loss leader approach. Try not to burn me at the stake for this..but as an example, the condoms I buy can be found at Rite-Aid for $11.99 per dozen...or I can get them at WalMart for $4.98/dz...for the exact same product...so no change in value other than the location, shopping experience, etc...but if the $12/dz and the $5/dz condoms feel exactly the same I'd be crazy to pay $12 at RiteAid...unless I was out and the wife brought a hot friend home...nearest WalMart is 1/2 hr, RiteAid is 5 min. But...while I'm at WalMart I don't just buy the condoms...we also buy laundry soap, cat litter, shampoo, toothpaste...etc etc etc...by the time we leave we never spend less than $100 and I always buy at least 2 dzn condoms. If I had to buy them at Rite Aid, I'd only buy one dozen and maybe a soda but nothing else. The spirit of the argument is, more people are going to go to walmart and while they're there, they'll typically buy more than just what they came for. don't get me wrong, i don't want Sunday River to look like the WalMart in NConway or Windham...but they've been able to maintain the quality of the sking surface and a pretty darned good experience despite the majority of resort revenue being sucked out to Park City...so imagine what boyne will be able to do when they're able to hang on to more of the revenue from SR and won't be saddled with the credit card like interest rates that ASC had. The more people they can get to the hill, the more incremental revenue they can siphon from them...and there's a lot of margin in a $2.75 hot chocolate and $9 cheeseburger.

I understood your initial proposition. And it's a common business model. Wal-mart is the classic example.

I don't like to go to Wal-mart. Always way too crowded. I'm not enamored with the type of customers I see there. I don't like being put in a situation where I'm walking around putting things in my cart because they are there. And most of all, I don't ever associate "value" with Wal-mart...I associate "cheap" with Wal-mart.

I think you make certain assumptions that may or may not be true. You would never find $2.75 hot chocolate or a $9 hamburger at Wal-mart, and if you did none of the customers who shop at Wal-mart would buy at those prices. Assuming that season pass bargain hunters are going to spend the money anyway on those types of purchases doesn't work for me. Those skiers will brown bag it and buy ski gear online and tune their own equipment. The ski areas won't siphon a dime off of them.

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

WOW. What kind of a marriage do you have? Regular threesomes?

Hey I can dream right!:razz:

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

I understood your initial proposition. And it's a common business model. Wal-mart is the classic example.

I don't like to go to Wal-mart. Always way too crowded. I'm not enamored with the type of customers I see there. I don't like being put in a situation where I'm walking around putting things in my cart because they are there. And most of all, I don't ever associate "value" with Wal-mart...I associate "cheap" with Wal-mart.

I think you make certain assumptions that may or may not be true. You would never find $2.75 hot chocolate or a $9 hamburger at Wal-mart, and if you did none of the customers who shop at Wal-mart would buy at those prices. Assuming that season pass bargain hunters are going to spend the money anyway on those types of purchases doesn't work for me. Those skiers will brown bag it and buy ski gear online and tune their own equipment. The ski areas won't siphon a dime off of them.

Like I said, don't burn me at the stake for the analogy...I usually feel like I need to shower after leaving WalMart...it was more to point out the incremental revenue. Yes, I did make some assumptions...as does any economist...I can't remember the latin for it, but "all things being equal" was the rough translation of the economic principle. You're also making an assumption that "Those skiers will brown bag it and buy ski gear online and tune their own equipment. The ski areas won't siphon a dime off of them" You can't paint an entire population of skiers/riders with the same brush. I've sat next to plenty of bronze pass holders at the bar at the end of the day, stood behind them in the cafeteria line, talked to them about the new skis they just bought at the RESORT owned shop while sharing a lift ride with them. I was working in a resort owned ski shop the first year of the discount passes...heard time and time again "because of the pass price I can afford to buy new skis/boots/jacket etc" Its consumer behavior 101...if you've got a pass, paid for months before the snow flies, you're not going to pinch every penny each day you're at the mtn. If you just had to shell out $60 for a day ticket you're a helluva lot more likely to count every penny for the rest of the day. Sure, there are going be be plenty of skin flints who wil try not to drop another dime at the resort...but there are plenty of other people who aren't going to worry about spending another $10-20 even $30 each day they ski...and they're going to go more often...and the more they go, the more they fall in love with the sport and become more vested. You're not going to convince me that I'm wrong here...I've spent enough time working in this industry, riding chairlifts and talking to skiers and riders about their spending habits...and I'm not going to convince you that its a viable business strategy despite the demise of ASC (they were doomed from the start anyway)...so we're just going to have to watch it play out over the next few years....Powdr has one take on it, Boyne has another. Look at that...you didn't even need the new guy, JerseyJoey, to stir the pot...you haven't lost your touch...you just got me from looking for a dead horse emoticon to a couple of War and Peace length posts.

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

He's not Bob...ECPH is one of my favorites to debate with.

Aw shucks you're making me blush. Sweet...all this debating has got me up to 3 peaks now! Woohooo!

 

[JimG.]

Like I said, don't burn me at the stake for the analogy...I usually feel like I need to shower after leaving WalMart...it was more to point out the incremental revenue. Yes, I did make some assumptions...as does any economist...I can't remember the latin for it, but "all things being equal" was the rough translation of the economic principle. You're also making an assumption that "Those skiers will brown bag it and buy ski gear online and tune their own equipment. The ski areas won't siphon a dime off of them" You can't paint an entire population of skiers/riders with the same brush. I've sat next to plenty of bronze pass holders at the bar at the end of the day, stood behind them in the cafeteria line, talked to them about the new skis they just bought at the RESORT owned shop while sharing a lift ride with them. I was working in a resort owned ski shop the first year of the discount passes...heard time and time again "because of the pass price I can afford to buy new skis/boots/jacket etc" Its consumer behavior 101...if you've got a pass, paid for months before the snow flies, you're not going to pinch every penny each day you're at the mtn. If you just had to shell out $60 for a day ticket you're a helluva lot more likely to count every penny for the rest of the day. Sure, there are going be be plenty of skin flints who wil try not to drop another dime at the resort...but there are plenty of other people who aren't going to worry about spending another $10-20 even $30 each day they ski...and they're going to go more often...and the more they go, the more they fall in love with the sport and become more vested. You're not going to convince me that I'm wrong here...I've spent enough time working in this industry, riding chairlifts and talking to skiers and riders about their spending habits...and I'm not going to convince you that its a viable business strategy despite the demise of ASC (they were doomed from the start anyway)...so we're just going to have to watch it play out over the next few years....Powdr has one take on it, Boyne has another. Look at that...you didn't even need the new guy to stir the pot...you haven't lost your touch...you just got me from looking for a dead horse emoticon to a couple of War and Peace length posts.

My comeback is simple...the people who will buy incrementally who bought a discount pass will buy a more expensive pass too. They have the money. Of course they will buy a discounted pass if available, why pass up a good deal?

And chances are they will continue to buy incrementally even if the pass costs more. So I get both benefits.

The skin flints will always be skin flints...but you will have more of them if you offer discounted passes.