Superpasses: more crowds?

[machski]

So I've heard this from both the SLC and JJ crowds that it seems like Ikon pass Blackout weekends crowds are down or non existent but other weekends are nuts. So let's analyze this then. We think about 1/2 million or so Ikon's were sold, no idea on full vs base breakdown. But on anecdotal evidence, let's assume most were bases. Let's also assume half were sold to residents in greater SLC area (250K). Each pass is only good for 5 days, so those passed represent 1.25miliion skier days up LCC. Now spread that over the weekend days available during peak season and yes, I can see congestion on weekends. Outside of weekends or a saved day for deep powder o cannot. Obviously more passes were sold but in my case, if I'm traveling out there, I am coming for a week and skiing mainly midweek anyway.

Perhaps the solution would be for partner resorts not added to the full access list (Copper/Eldora), limit base passes to non Saturdays (granted this might make Sundays completely unworth it) or purely midweek outside of peak season (xmas-mid march). If they do that, they would need to bump up the full price difference more over base to prevent many from just stepping up.

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[EPB]

Or prevent people from ever taking up the sport in the first place due to the high cost of single day tix, which is a real concern.

That, too

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[thetrailboss]

So I've heard this from both the SLC and JJ crowds that it seems like Ikon pass Blackout weekends crowds are down or non existent but other weekends are nuts. So let's analyze this then. We think about 1/2 million or so Ikon's were sold, no idea on full vs base breakdown. But on anecdotal evidence, let's assume most were bases. Let's also assume half were sold to residents in greater SLC area (250K). Each pass is only good for 5 days, so those passed represent 1.25miliion skier days up LCC. Now spread that over the weekend days available during peak season and yes, I can see congestion on weekends. Outside of weekends or a saved day for deep powder o cannot. Obviously more passes were sold but in my case, if I'm traveling out there, I am coming for a week and skiing mainly midweek anyway.

Perhaps the solution would be for partner resorts not added to the full access list (Copper/Eldora), limit base passes to non Saturdays (granted this might make Sundays completely unworth it) or purely midweek outside of peak season (xmas-mid march). If they do that, they would need to bump up the full price difference more over base to prevent many from just stepping up.

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So Alta/Bird has said that they had over a million skier days last season in LCC which was a record. The pinch points are the road and parking.

I agree with you that restricting IKON to midweek non-holiday is a good compromise.

 

[JimG.]

I give up.

You guys have inhaled the megapass kool aid.

Wait until they own everything and prices skyrocket; good luck to second homeowners who can no longer take the crowds and costs and wind up seling their properties at a loss.

 

[bdfreetuna]

 

[Smellytele]

I give up.

You guys have inhaled the megapass kool aid.

Wait until they own everything and prices skyrocket; good luck to second homeowners who can no longer take the crowds and costs and wind up seling their properties at a loss.

Still trying to figure out who is defending it. Just read 8 posts against or at least reasons and how to modify them.


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[bdfreetuna]

Or prevent people from ever taking up the sport in the first place due to the high cost of single day tix, which is a real concern.

Fighting the good fight still I see.

Another real concern is half-burnt out skiers, realizing what the sport costs them in time+money+travel, and saying "screw it" early and either retiring / finding new hobbies or saying I'll just ski the local mountain a few times a year.

 

[machski]

I give up.

You guys have inhaled the megapass kool aid.

Wait until they own everything and prices skyrocket; good luck to second homeowners who can no longer take the crowds and costs and wind up seling their properties at a loss.

If there are crowds, how do you figure homeowners would sell for a loss? Sounds like there might be demand to me. Prices will go up, but not astronomically, that blows up the Epic/Ikon model if it gets ridiculously priced.

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[deadheadskier]

Speaking of too crowded Superpass mountains, I skied Stowe today with my four year old. First time here in 5 years because of you guessed it; having an Epic pass.

Your ski area might be too crowded with Jerries if you need Rest Area signs on the sides of the trails.



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[jimmywilson69]

saw those at Okemo the last 2 days. I laughed, but figured if the demographic indicates that is needed so be it. Remember ski forum members aren't the target demographic for these alleged safety measures.

I've largely not weighed in on this megapass thing, because honestly I have no choice. My local mountain was PEAK>EPIC. Clearly one is better than the other.

Will I do more trips to VT, NH, and out west because I have EPIC. probably. I already have 10 days out outside of PA on my EPIC. In a normal year I might only have say 6-8 days outside of PA. It sure makes planning a trip easier when I've already paid for the skiing. I could honestly see a situation where I hold both EPIC and IKON if I wanted to take a vacation out west to non-EPIC resorts. When you look at the cost of multi-day tickets for a western trip its not that far fetched to just scoop up an IKON too. Then the same thing happens my days out west maybe double and my Northeast days might triple? So its easy to see how this crowding problem has happened. For newer megapass holders they might think this is the norm, and just roll with it. Again most people skiing aren't on forums discussing these things.

Because I'm on a forum like this and I generally know when ski areas are super busy I can plan accordingly. The limitations on EPIC local are basically a non-factor for me. I'm never going to ski any of the holiday periods, and even if they increase the number of resorts on limited days, I'll likely never exceed those.

I will say this. the high cost of trying to get into this sport has always been an impediment. Unfortunately, it appears that the megapass is making this problem worse. I would hope that at least in the long term these corporations are able to think about ways to make it affordable to get people into the sport who eventually buy the pass offering. Right now it would seem that they really don't need to do that, but who knows what 5 years from now brings?

 

[EPB]

I give up.

You guys have inhaled the megapass kool aid.

Wait until they own everything and prices skyrocket; good luck to second homeowners who can no longer take the crowds and costs and wind up seling their properties at a loss.

I'm no super pass apologist. Like most things in life, they have pros and cons, and I've just gotta take the good with the bad.

I just really don't understand how the superpass scheme changes the benefits of a second home. If you'd rather spread out your visits broadly across Epic/IKON land than ski regularly near your mountain home base, that's great. But maybe what's driving your sentiment is that you're just not the right candidate to get a second home in the mountains in the first place and your $$$ is best spent elsewhere. There's nothing wrong with liking options.

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[abc]

I give up.

You guys have inhaled the megapass kool aid.

Every argument you've put up had been debunked, by different people too. If that doesn't get through to you, nothing will.

There's one and only one reason why anyone would want to avoid mountain on the mega-pass, it's the crowd. But since you're only skiing mid-week, crowd level isn't your concern.

You want to support smaller independent mountains? Good for you.

You want to have a community feel on the mountain? Pick a mountain that has it.

But you won't be doing it for the "reasons" you put forth, except to make you feel better about your decision NOT to buy in a mega-resort. And financially, you're quite likely to be worse off staying away from the mega-resorts. So your effort to "justify" it is quite unlikely to pan out.

 

[bdfreetuna]

Every argument you've put up had been debunked, by different people too. If that doesn't get through to you, nothing will.

Debunking isn't a real thing in the realm of opinion/subjectivity. Unless you're Snopes.

There's one and only one reason why anyone would want to avoid mountain on the mega-pass, it's the crowd. But since you're only skiing mid-week, crowd level isn't your concern.

C'mon people gave lots of reasons, I have a few myself (that being one of them). I tend not to support monopolies. I have different preferred skiing habits. I happen to enjoy many of the unaffiliated ski areas and hope for their survival. Crowds, yes, that's a big deterrent. Knowing that you're supporting a system that will lead to higher prices and more ski areas closing for arguably short term gain, that too.

You want to support smaller independent mountains? Good for you.

Yeah, I prefer as much horizontal capitalism as possible. Plus more places to ski for cheap.

You want to have a community feel on the mountain? Pick a mountain that has it.

Agreed. There are still good options for this, hopefully they won't have to close.

But you won't be doing it for the "reasons" you put forth, except to make you feel better about your decision NOT to buy in a mega-resort. And financially, you're quite likely to be worse off staying away from the mega-resorts. So your effort to "justify" it is quite unlikely to pan out.

I know your comment was for JimG and I decided to reply anyway... for my place no moral or ethical standards on my involvement in the sport of skiing. I have a lot of questions about the sustainability of skiing even on a personal level, let alone even approaching the waters of attaching myself emotionally to where I may/may not ski or what others do.

My basis for taking the contrary view is what I think is better for more small/medium ski area survival, low costs, variety, and attracting new people to the sport. Horizontal capitalism = more competition which makes everyone perform better.

 

[abc]

My basis for taking the contrary view is what I think is better for more small/medium ski area survival, low costs, variety, and attracting new people to the sport. Horizontal capitalism = more competition which makes everyone perform better.

Supporting small/medium ski area isn't specifically "contrary view" per se. It's only "contrary" to one view, the view of the mega-resort managers.

It's not the view that I disagree with. It's JimG's justification that doesn't actually stand up to reason & logic (which was "debunk" by several others) that I care to point out.

 

[thetrailboss]

If there are crowds, how do you figure homeowners would sell for a loss? Sounds like there might be demand to me. Prices will go up, but not astronomically, that blows up the Epic/Ikon model if it gets ridiculously priced.

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What you are missing is that people used to pay a premium for the experience of some of these resorts that are now much more crowded with IKON. Two prime examples: Deer Valley and Aspen. Anecdotally, there are MANY second-home owners at those resorts who are PISSED with the crowds of folks who are at the areas to "use their days" while locals who only want Aspen or DV pay a premium to ski there (DV still commands $2,000 pp or so at last check). So if you invested in a second-home at these areas, and have been paying a premium for a top-shelf experience, now that has completely been undermined by folks who show up with their $599 or $999 IKON passes and crowd the slopes. Folks with those passes are NOT going to buy high-priced realty.

I think Jim's larger point is that the value of SOME of these resorts, in terms of brand, is being eroded.

 

[thetrailboss]

There's one and only one reason why anyone would want to avoid mountain on the mega-pass, it's the crowd. But since you're only skiing mid-week, crowd level isn't your concern.

Since when do second homeowners only ski midweek? If anything, they ski the weekends and holidays.

 

[bdfreetuna]

The way forward is in the timeshare "points" model. You pay $899 a year plus $279 membership fee for a total of 30,000 Ski Points. These points can be carried over into the next year with a $199 (yearly) Platinum Membership Upgrade. To carry over points up to one additional year a $249 Points Protection Upgrade is available.

Deer Valley will cost you 10,000 points a day (plus $200 total in "per point usage fee") but you can ski Sunapee and Okemo as much as you can tolerate!

 

[JimG.]

What you are missing is that people used to pay a premium for the experience of some of these resorts that are now much more crowded with IKON. Two prime examples: Deer Valley and Aspen. Anecdotally, there are MANY second-home owners at those resorts who are PISSED with the crowds of folks who are at the areas to "use their days" while locals who only want Aspen or DV pay a premium to ski there (DV still commands $2,000 pp or so at last check). So if you invested in a second-home at these areas, and have been paying a premium for a top-shelf experience, now that has completely been undermined by folks who show up with their $599 or $999 IKON passes and crowd the slopes. Folks with those passes are NOT going to buy high-priced realty.

I think Jim's larger point is that the value of SOME of these resorts, in terms of brand, is being eroded.

This!!! Thanks TB.

Many are obsessed with cheap. I'm not. I want quality and I'm happy to pay for it. People who love cheap don't care about quality. And the megapass caters to cheap.

Not my thing.

As for skiing midweek only, while many of my days are midweek I still ski on weekends but less so now because of the stupid crowds. To me that's a restriction of my ski days brought about solely because of the megapass.

Not my thing either.

That's my opinion and really I don't care what others think or others who want to "debunk" an opinion. Last I checked debunking refers to facts that turn out to be lies. Think about that.

 

[farlep99]

What you are missing is that people used to pay a premium for the experience of some of these resorts that are now much more crowded with IKON. Two prime examples: Deer Valley and Aspen. Anecdotally, there are MANY second-home owners at those resorts who are PISSED with the crowds of folks who are at the areas to "use their days" while locals who only want Aspen or DV pay a premium to ski there (DV still commands $2,000 pp or so at last check). So if you invested in a second-home at these areas, and have been paying a premium for a top-shelf experience, now that has completely been undermined by folks who show up with their $599 or $999 IKON passes and crowd the slopes. Folks with those passes are NOT going to buy high-priced realty.

I think Jim's larger point is that the value of SOME of these resorts, in terms of brand, is being eroded.

I get this point, but it doesn't mean anyone is selling for a loss. Worst (best?) case scenario is you decide to not use the 2nd home anymore and rent it out, in which case all of these IKON people need places to stay so you should have no issue with short term rentals. I know several people with 2nd homes in the Stowe area (MRV too) and the short term rental (Airbnb, etc) rental market is red-hot. It always has been a good rental market in Stowe for the most part, but everyone I talk to certainly thinks that Epic passes have increased the demand (and consequently, the rental rates).

 

[thetrailboss]

I get this point, but it doesn't mean anyone is selling for a loss. Worst (best?) case scenario is you decide to not use the 2nd home anymore and rent it out, in which case all of these IKON people need places to stay so you should have no issue with short term rentals. I know several people with 2nd homes in the Stowe area (MRV too) and the short term rental (Airbnb, etc) rental market is red-hot. It always has been a good rental market in Stowe for the most part, but everyone I talk to certainly thinks that Epic passes have increased the demand (and consequently, the rental rates).

Again, if you paid for the Stowe or Deer Valley experience, and now those brands are equated with cheap EPIC/IKON, then you've lost the value for your property.

IKON and EPIC do not equate to high value clientele, not even in the rental market.