VAIL SUCKS

[thetrailboss]

Yup, The Cumming family, who own Powdr and Snowbird, and at the time Park City mountain resort, forgot to submit by the deadline a note of intent to renew the lease for the land that essentially all the resort with the exception of the immediate base area was on, for the next 20 year period (I believe it was a 20yr lease if memory serves) for some ridiculously low amount for the 3000+ acres or so the lease covered. The lease holder, Talisker, had already had a good working relationship with Vail Resorts and were part of the development team developing the Canyons. Talisaker told the Cumming family that since the missed the lease intent to renew date, that the old terms were null and void and that if they wanted a new lease, it would be at current fair market value (the original elase was I believe for somewhere around 100k a year). Eventually Tailsker aligned with Vail, who acquired the rights to the leased land that most of the Park City Resort was on. The Cumming family lost in court and threatened to remove all of the infrastructure (lifts, mountain ops facilities, on mountain lodges, etc) from the leased land they no longer had rights to, and not give Vail rights to the main base area and parking lots for the Park City Resort. Anf eventually the Cumming family/Powdr and Vail reached an agreement and the connecting of the Canyons and Park City Mountain Resort happened

Accurate, except Ian would tell you that this was John’s fault (the son).

 

[BodeMiller1]

The most egregious real estate error ever. This would never happen in New England, except for the Gunstock real estate blonder. Private houses on Ski Area (County) land. Notice to quiet. This is where the lawyers fight it out. Surveyors are not on anyone's side.

Meow

 

[BodeMiller1]

The most egregious real estate error ever. This would never happen in New England, except for the Gunstock real estate blonder. Private houses on Ski Area (County) land. Notice to quiet. This is where the lawyers fight it out. Surveyors are not on anyone's side.

Meow

You're getting better, must be the change in the weather.

 

[thebigo]

Epic three day for the NH mountains off peak is currently $152. Does the price typically go up during the fall or can I wait to purchase?

 

[jimmywilson69]

will creep up as the year goes on. They do stop selling them too probably around sept/oct.

 

[x10003q]

Yup, The Cumming family, who own Powdr and Snowbird, and at the time Park City mountain resort, forgot to submit by the deadline a note of intent to renew the lease for the land that essentially all the resort with the exception of the immediate base area was on, for the next 20 year period (I believe it was a 20yr lease if memory serves) for some ridiculously low amount for the 3000+ acres or so the lease covered. The lease holder, Talisker, had already had a good working relationship with Vail Resorts and were part of the development team developing the Canyons. Talisaker told the Cumming family that since the missed the lease intent to renew date, that the old terms were null and void and that if they wanted a new lease, it would be at current fair market value (the original elase was I believe for somewhere around 100k a year). Eventually Tailsker aligned with Vail, who acquired the rights to the leased land that most of the Park City Resort was on. The Cumming family lost in court and threatened to remove all of the infrastructure (lifts, mountain ops facilities, on mountain lodges, etc) from the leased land they no longer had rights to, and not give Vail rights to the main base area and parking lots for the Park City Resort. Anf eventually the Cumming family/Powdr and Vail reached an agreement and the connecting of the Canyons and Park City Mountain Resort happened

The details of the Powdr loss of Park City are ridiculous. The lease renewal deadline was April 30, 2011. The lease was to be continued at $150,000/year for 40 years until 2051. John Cumming fired CFO Rick Desvaux in 2008 roughly 3 years before the due date. Desvaux was fully responsible for the lease renewal and had all the paperwork in his desk along with marking the date on his Outlook calendar. I have vague memories that Desvaux had not done anything to warrant being fired. Cumming then hired Jennifer Botter to be the CFO. Botter had some connection to John Cumming, but I can't remember the details. She had zero ski area or resort experience. Desvaux was escorted out without any discourse with Botter. The idea that you fire the CFO without a transition plan is mindboggling. Nobody touched Desvaux's desk with all the lease renewal info until after the due date on the lease. At some point after the failure to file, a judge ruled that if Powdr wanted to operate PCMR it would need to pay the landowner Talisker $17.5 million/year (vs $150K!!!!) Powdr ended up selling to Vail for $182.5 million. Botter 'left' Powdr in 2014. I bet Rick Devaux was smiling when the news came out about Powdr's failure to renew the lease.

 

[BodeMiller1]

It looks like there's a lot going on here.

 

[thetrailboss]

The details of the Powdr loss of Park City are ridiculous. The lease renewal deadline was April 30, 2011. The lease was to be continued at $150,000/year for 40 years until 2051. John Cumming fired CFO Rick Desvaux in 2008 roughly 3 years before the due date. Desvaux was fully responsible for the lease renewal and had all the paperwork in his desk along with marking the date on his Outlook calendar. I have vague memories that Desvaux had not done anything to warrant being fired. Cumming then hired Jennifer Botter to be the CFO. Botter had some connection to John Cumming, but I can't remember the details. She had zero ski area or resort experience. Desvaux was escorted out without any discourse with Botter. The idea that you fire the CFO without a transition plan is mindboggling. Nobody touched Desvaux's desk with all the lease renewal info until after the due date on the lease. At some point after the failure to file, a judge ruled that if Powdr wanted to operate PCMR it would need to pay the landowner Talisker $17.5 million/year (vs $150K!!!!) Powdr ended up selling to Vail for $182.5 million. Botter 'left' Powdr in 2014. I bet Rick Devaux was smiling when the news came out about Powdr's failure to renew the lease.

Truth.

 

[Zand]

My Epic Local pass came in the mail today! Something, something, something, dark side.

I find it funny that Epic gets their passes out early even though they're never in any rush to open their mountains. Meanwhile sometimes Ikon doesn't even have passes mailed out by the time their first mountains are opening.

 

[BodeMiller1]

My Epic Local pass came in the mail today! Something, something, something, dark side.

I find it funny that Epic gets their passes out early even though they're never in any rush to open their mountains. Meanwhile sometimes Ikon doesn't even have passes mailed out by the time their first mountains are opening.

It just seems that way.

 

[joshua segal]

...

I find it funny that Epic gets their passes out early even though they're never in any rush to open their mountains. ...

Opening dates have pretty much remained unchanged. If they are a little late, it has primarily been dictated by climate change. This is true even for the "King of Fall/King of spring" Killington: When was the last year Killington had October skiing? -- and it's not for lack of trying!

 

[Smellytele]

Opening dates have pretty much remained unchanged. If they are a little late, it has primarily been dictated by climate change. This is true even for the "King of Fall/King of spring" Killington: When was the last year Killington had October skiing? -- and it's not for lack of trying!

2018 and 5 of the previous 7 years before that. Really not that long ago as far as the climate goes.

 

[joshua segal]

2018 and 5 of the previous 7 years before that. Really not that long ago as far as the climate goes.

And Oct. 1 in 1992,1993 and 1997. Between 1974 and 2000, there was October skiing 25 out of 26 seasons. Are you arguing that climate change is not a real thing?

 

[Smellytele]

And Oct. 1 in 1992,1993 and 1997. Between 1974 and 2000, there was October skiing 25 out of 26 seasons. Are you arguing that climate change is not a real thing?

No but this is not the evidence I would go with to prove it. Too many other factors such as willingness to open in October.

 

[doublediamond]

And back then in the 70s,-00s they just barely dusted the grass with manmade. Common for them to close after opening day; sometimes for weeks.

Now they won’t open until they have a durable base that they think lasts beyond that first day. Which means not only more snow is needed but colder/logner production windows.

A couple inches vs. 12-18” is a *MAJOR* difference.

With today’s standards/expectations of the public, how many of those years would have required a later opening either due to not yet enough snow down on opening day or simply too short of a window? ALL of them.

And regardless of any climate change if you wish to believe or deny it … energy costs have gone through the roof relative to the 70s. We’re not in an economic reality where you can push 40:1 air-water ratio. Meaning that even with energy efficiency improvements to snowmaking it simply has to be colder to make economic snow.

All in all there’s a lot more variables than just “climate change”.

 

[deadheadskier]

Yeah, some of those Upper Cascade years were basically fast grass.

VT definitely much warmer though. BTV average daytime high in January is now 7 degrees warmer than 50 years ago. Highest increase of any metro in the country apparently.

 

[Zand]

I could attest to October being the month that has warmed the most in the past 30 years and I have seen the data to back that up. That fact plus Killington moving early season from a few hundred feet of Cascade over to Rime/Reason makes a difference.

Also, for a good chunk of Eastern New England, Aprils have actually cooled a touch in the past 30 years. Almost like both winter and summer have shifted forward a few weeks.

The increases in BTV have been insane. They don't really have an urban heat core like a larger metro area would. But there's so many days where most of New England can be in the 70s and 80s and meanwhile BTV is shooting into the 90s. And they're quite often the warmest New England city (or at least in the same neighborhood as Boston and Hartford) at night when the rest of VT is 20 degrees cooler. It's bizarre.

 

[jimmywilson69]

Has to be somewhat related to warmer air funneling up the applachians and Hudson Valley and being "trapped" on the western flank of the mountains.

I've been in Burlington in the dead of winter numerous times in the past few years and it was as warm as it is in PA...

 

[BodeMiller1]

And Oct. 1 in 1992,1993 and 1997. Between 1974 and 2000, there was October skiing 25 out of 26 seasons. Are you arguing that climate change is not a real thing?

The climate is changing, that came out of nowhere. There are warmer winters and colder winters; same as it's ever been. Does anyone think we can tell which direction this is going? No, it's either hotter or colder. It's never stayed the same. If the earth was born of the sun, liquid "metal" and now covered with water was there a point where it or anything on it stayed the same?

Anyone who uses their own experiences to try and predict the overall path is in error. Too small a sample.

 

[2Planker]

Cranmore is having a real tough time selling the $700K condos.....

CA$H buyer (for 2 townhouses) doubted Cranmore would have enough coverage in 10 years.
Sad but True...

Less snow than in the 70's & 80's.
60's in Jan, 4 out of the last 5 years.
Hotter summers than when we were kids.
More torrential rain w/ Northern NE Flooding more frequently.