How is Belleayre operating minus

[drjeff]

Look at some of the pro-Belleayre posts in the last few threads - (not direct quotes because I don't have time to dig up the posts) 'Belleayre is closing!' 'Once the lift goes down, there will be no one to fix it' 'They're going to lose their job' etc.

As more and more data comes out (such as the list of positions being reduced from full-time-year-round, the operating losses, etc.), it becomes more and more obvious that there has been a misinformation campaign coming from some of the pro-Belleayre-hackarama folks.

Once again it's the age old "emotion vs. logic" arguement line driving things. If people could eliminate the emotion from the debate (which is next to impossible for some to do) and look at the facts OBJECTIVELY, it's plain to see that the business model that Bell has been running off isn't finacially sustainable, and that now is the time to make changes to allow them to continue operations, in a new, hopefully net positive cash flow way

 

[x10003q]

What puzzles me about Belleayre is why it's being run by DEC, which is being decimated by state cuts, while Gore and Whiteface have the luxury of being part of ORDA, one of those wonderful little "Authorities" that escape being included as part of the state budget? Then again, I guess the real question is, why are New York Taxpayers being saddled with the cost of running three ski areas, anyway?

The ORDA funding was cut by $1 million in the state budget compared to last year. ORDA received $5.6 million in this year's budget. Belleayre does not want to be part of ORDA as their main focus is the Lake Placid region. The ORDA board sees Gore as a competitor to LP and tries to do what ever they can to keep Gore not as well equiped as Whiteface.
To answer your question about why NYS is in the ski business you would need to go back 50-70 years and see what regional and political forces created these places. I would guess an one important factor was developing winter tourism. Lake Placid is way more busy with visitors in the summer. At this point I doubt there will ever be enough political force to change the NY constitution and sell/lease the 3 ski areas to a private operator.

 

[oakapple]

To answer your question about why NYS is in the ski business you would need to go back 50-70 years and see what regional and political forces created these places. I would guess an one important factor was developing winter tourism. Lake Placid is way more busy with visitors in the summer. At this point I doubt there will ever be enough political force to change the NY constitution and sell/lease the 3 ski areas to a private operator.

At the time Belleayre was created, Hunter and Windham (the two nearest competitors) did not exist as ski areas. So the legislation that created Belleayre was worthwhile in two respects. First, it preserved the area for public use, rather than private development. And second, it created an alpine skiing destination that the region lacked at the time.

Obviously, given the way the market has developed, it no longer makes sense for the state to be in the ski business. A much more sensible arrangement would be the one that exists at many other ski areas operated on public lands: the government continues to own the property, but a private entity manages the resort.

 

[mondeo]

At this point I doubt there will ever be enough political force to change the NY constitution and sell/lease the 3 ski areas to a private operator.

What's stopping them from leasing the operation to a private operator? My read on the constitution is that they can't lease the land; if NYS still owned the land and assets, and sort of reverse contracted operations (contractor pays NYS, gets to keep the profits,) wouldn't that fulfill both the letter and intent of the law?

 

[ERJ-145CA]

At the time Belleayre was created, Hunter and Windham (the two nearest competitors) did not exist as ski areas. So the legislation that created Belleayre was worthwhile in two respects. First, it preserved the area for public use, rather than private development. And second, it created an alpine skiing destination that the region lacked at the time.

The area was mainly preserved to supply clean drinking water to NYC so development was severly restricted in the interest of preservation for clean water. Belleayre was mainly created to have some kind of economic engine in the region because of the development restrictions.

 

[tjf67]

The ORDA funding was cut by $1 million in the state budget compared to last year. ORDA received $5.6 million in this year's budget. Belleayre does not want to be part of ORDA as their main focus is the Lake Placid region. The ORDA board sees Gore as a competitor to LP and tries to do what ever they can to keep Gore not as well equiped as Whiteface.
To answer your question about why NYS is in the ski business you would need to go back 50-70 years and see what regional and political forces created these places. I would guess an one important factor was developing winter tourism. Lake Placid is way more busy with visitors in the summer. At this point I doubt there will ever be enough political force to change the NY constitution and sell/lease the 3 ski areas to a private operator.

You r about 20% correct.

 

[tjf67]

What's stopping them from leasing the operation to a private operator? My read on the constitution is that they can't lease the land; if NYS still owned the land and assets, and sort of reverse contracted operations (contractor pays NYS, gets to keep the profits,) wouldn't that fulfill both the letter and intent of the law?

No

 

[mondeo]

No

Thank you for your illuminating contribution to this discussion.

 

[legalskier]

"How is Belleayre operating minus

all those employees????????

I don't know, why don't you ask them?

In the meantime...

 

[x10003q]

You r about 20% correct.

Well spoken.

 

[catskills]

....... Lake Placid is way more busy with visitors in the summer. ..........

Yeah so. What has this got to do with anything. Jackson Hole is also WAY more busy in the summer. This thread is all over the place. :smash:


I want to add something to this thread that really pisses me off :angry: . A number of posts seem to imply that the Belleayre employees have it easy with their soft cushion jobs and they don't deserve their pay from the tax payers. I beg to differ. This is an insult to not only the Belleayre employees but employees at all the ski areas.

I think we need to show a hell of a lot more respect to the hard working ski areas employees.

• Snowmaking is sometimes listed as the top 10 most dangerous jobs. I had two snowmaker friends of mine, where one was knocked unconscious and the other died. Yeah he died. Unfortunately he is not the only snowmaker to loose his life.
• Snowmaking is cold, hard work, takes a lot of different skills including how to do a lift evac when your buddy is stuck on the lift at 2am in the morning.
• You know those little wheels on top of the towers that supports or pulls down the chair lift cable. When the bearing in those wheels wears out someone has to climb up there, crawl out on those wheels, reach way out with one arm and change them when its cold, dark and wind is blowing. Before he does that he has to pull one set of those wheels down with a cable and a winch. You know what happens when cables break? They can snap and take your head off in less than a second. All of you, me included, in your nice warm office jobs think about that. Let me ask you do you and I deserve our pay checks?
• Your have to be an artist to run a snowcat. It takes a lot of skill and years of experience. Running a snowcat can also be damn dangerous on a 40 degree slope.
• Running all the equipment in the pump house for snowmaking is not something you can just teach someone in a few hours. It takes years of experience. What exactly is all the experience worth. Oh let me guess according to most folks on this forum its only worth a seasonal job with low pay that does not pay enough to live on. Have a Merry Christmas everyone.

 

[tjf67]

Thank you for your illuminating contribution to this discussion.

When you actually read the constitution you will find your answer. Which will be NO

 

[tjf67]

Well spoken.

Just saying you are speaking half truths. Do you believe the stuff you are spewing or just makingup something that sounds good.

 

[mondeo]

A number of posts seem to imply that the Belleayre employees have it easy with their soft cushion jobs and they don't deserve their pay from the tax payers.

So you're saying they're working hard blowing snow in the summer?

 

[mondeo]

When you actually read the constitution you will find your answer. Which will be NO

"The lands of the state, now owned or hereafter acquired, constituting the forest preserve as now fixed by law, shall be forever kept as wild forest lands. They shall not be leased, sold or exchanged, or be taken by any corporation, public or private, nor shall the timber thereon be sold, removed or destroyed"

How does this prevent contracting the operation of the ski area? It's not leasing the land. That's what's prohibited.

 

[deadheadskier]

Yeah so. What has this got to do with anything. Jackson Hole is also WAY more busy in the summer. This thread is all over the place. :smash:


I want to add something to this thread that really pisses me off :angry: . A number of posts seem to imply that the Belleayre employees have it easy with their soft cushion jobs and they don't deserve their pay from the tax payers. I beg to differ. This is an insult to not only the Belleayre employees but employees at all the ski areas.

I think we need to show a hell of a lot more respect to the hard working ski areas employees.

• Snowmaking is sometimes listed as the top 10 most dangerous jobs. I had two snowmaker friends of mine, where one was knocked unconscious and the other died. Yeah he died. Unfortunately he is not the only snowmaker to loose his life.
• Snowmaking is cold, hard work, takes a lot of different skills including how to do a lift evac when your buddy is stuck on the lift at 2am in the morning.
• You know those little wheels on top of the towers that supports or pulls down the chair lift cable. When the bearing in those wheels wears out someone has to climb up there, crawl out on those wheels, reach way out with one arm and change them when its cold, dark and wind is blowing. Before he does that he has to pull one set of those wheels down with a cable and a winch. You know what happens when cables break? They can snap and take your head off in less than a second. All of you, me included, in your nice warm office jobs think about that. Let me ask you do you and I deserve our pay checks?
• Your have to be an artist to run a snowcat. It takes a lot of skill and years of experience. Running a snowcat can also be damn dangerous on a 40 degree slope.
• Running all the equipment in the pump house for snowmaking is not something you can just teach someone in a few hours. It takes years of experience. What exactly is all the experience worth. Oh let me guess according to most folks on this forum its only worth a seasonal job with low pay that does not pay enough to live on. Have a Merry Christmas everyone.

1st, sorry about your friend who died in snowmaking accident. that's terrible.

2nd, what does any of the above have to do with being employed year round in a full time position. Do fisherman get paid during the off seasons? No. They have damn dangerous jobs. Do they get benefits? No.

You've done nothing to justify why tax payers should support 55 year round employees at Bellyare

 

[dmc]

Yeah so. What has this got to do with anything. Jackson Hole is also WAY more busy in the summer. This thread is all over the place. :smash:


I want to add something to this thread that really pisses me off :angry: . A number of posts seem to imply that the Belleayre employees have it easy with their soft cushion jobs and they don't deserve their pay from the tax payers. I beg to differ. This is an insult to not only the Belleayre employees but employees at all the ski areas.

I think we need to show a hell of a lot more respect to the hard working ski areas employees.

• Snowmaking is sometimes listed as the top 10 most dangerous jobs. I had two snowmaker friends of mine, where one was knocked unconscious and the other died. Yeah he died. Unfortunately he is not the only snowmaker to loose his life.
• Snowmaking is cold, hard work, takes a lot of different skills including how to do a lift evac when your buddy is stuck on the lift at 2am in the morning.
• You know those little wheels on top of the towers that supports or pulls down the chair lift cable. When the bearing in those wheels wears out someone has to climb up there, crawl out on those wheels, reach way out with one arm and change them when its cold, dark and wind is blowing. Before he does that he has to pull one set of those wheels down with a cable and a winch. You know what happens when cables break? They can snap and take your head off in less than a second. All of you, me included, in your nice warm office jobs think about that. Let me ask you do you and I deserve our pay checks?
• Your have to be an artist to run a snowcat. It takes a lot of skill and years of experience. Running a snowcat can also be damn dangerous on a 40 degree slope.
• Running all the equipment in the pump house for snowmaking is not something you can just teach someone in a few hours. It takes years of experience. What exactly is all the experience worth. Oh let me guess according to most folks on this forum its only worth a seasonal job with low pay that does not pay enough to live on. Have a Merry Christmas everyone.

Whats the 2 Unions representing Belleayre State Employees have to say about all this? Sounds like a safety hazard..

The unions have not even discussed during this whole thread..

 

[gmcunni]

I want to add something to this thread that really pisses me off :angry: .

...snip...

no offense but how is it different at Belleayre when most other ski areas seem to accomplish the same work with seasonal employees?

 

[dmc]

no offense but how is it different at Belleayre when most other ski areas seem to accomplish the same work with seasonal employees?

Thats another thing - nobodies defended what these guys actually do when there's no snow...

I know they have concerts down there.. And a pond to swim in... not sure if it was open last summer.. Maybe a harvest festival..

 

[x10003q]

Just saying you are speaking half truths. Do you believe the stuff you are spewing or just makingup something that sounds good.

Once again well spoken.