Gas Price

[hammer]

All this talk about gas prices... I use an average of 10 gallons a week and the extra $10 or $20 sucks, but I don't tend to notice it that much. I don't make a ton of money, and I suppose it causes me to spend less on other things, but again, I don't really notice. What kills me is heating oil! To some degree it is poor planning on my part, but coming up with $900 to fill the tanks is hard as it is. When that suddenly becomes $1500 that really takes it's toll on my budget.

Natural Gas isn't cheap either...I'm on balanced billing so I don't see the fluctuations, but when I do look at my detailed usage I usually cringe at what I see over the winter months.

 

[Glenn]

Is that where all the casino monies goes to too?

I'm not 100% sure. I think it does...but don't quote me on that.

 

[gmcunni]

I'm not 100% sure. I think it does...but don't quote me on that.

i quoted you

 

[drjeff]

Coming soon??? The per mile tax?? :smash: :smash:

http://www.tgdaily.com/business-and...eral-draft-bill-would-tax-drivers-by-the-mile

You figure that if the government is trying to do its best via taxes and purchase incentives to get us driving cars that they'd like us to drive, that are more fuel efficient, that ultimately their gax tax revenue will go down if they succeed with their plan. So then they'll need to find a way to keep their coffers full of $$ to spend on the various pet projects that often come out of highway/transportation bills. Insert you're GPS monitor which then could directly collect the tax for the miles you just drove when you goto the gas station for your next tank (or possibly when you go and plug your electric car into a charging station)

How about we just let industry work on this problem by making a vehicle that the consumer wants/demands. I'm quite sure that we've got the visionary capabilites and then the ability to go from the vision to engineering reality out there. And it likely can be done in a far more efficient way than the government trying to tell us to do so via taxes

 

[campgottagopee]

How about we just let industry work on this problem by making a vehicle that the consumer wants/demands. I'm quite sure that we've got the visionary capabilites and then the ability to go from the vision to engineering reality out there. And it likely can be done in a far more efficient way than the government trying to tell us to do so via taxes

Spot on. Trust me, after the Cash for Clunkers debacle the Gov is in no way, shape, or form good at playing car dealer.

 

[hammer]

Dare I go so far as to say that all tax collections should be done for revenue purposes only and no taxes should be collected/credited as a way of shaping public policy? Is that even possible?

 

[mondeo]

Coming soon??? The per mile tax?? :smash: :smash:

http://www.tgdaily.com/business-and...eral-draft-bill-would-tax-drivers-by-the-mile

You figure that if the government is trying to do its best via taxes and purchase incentives to get us driving cars that they'd like us to drive, that are more fuel efficient, that ultimately their gax tax revenue will go down if they succeed with their plan. So then they'll need to find a way to keep their coffers full of $$ to spend on the various pet projects that often come out of highway/transportation bills. Insert you're GPS monitor which then could directly collect the tax for the miles you just drove when you goto the gas station for your next tank (or possibly when you go and plug your electric car into a charging station)

How about we just let industry work on this problem by making a vehicle that the consumer wants/demands. I'm quite sure that we've got the visionary capabilites and then the ability to go from the vision to engineering reality out there. And it likely can be done in a far more efficient way than the government trying to tell us to do so via taxes

Not that it will ever pass, if even just for the red herring privacy issues, but would bicycles fall under the tax as well? No reason not to if you're just taxing mileage.

 

[ctenidae]

Dare I go so far as to say that all tax collections should be done for revenue purposes only and no taxes should be collected/credited as a way of shaping public policy? Is that even possible?

Heh- the only trouble is that the easiest way to pass a tax is to sell it as a way to punish the bad people.

 

[mondeo]

Dare I go so far as to say that all tax collections should be done for revenue purposes only and no taxes should be collected/credited as a way of shaping public policy? Is that even possible?

The problem is the only ways to shape public policy is to either create laws mandating certain action, or create incentives to get people to follow that policy. If you want people to use less energy, you can pass laws limiting mileage, mandating minimum mpg, having automated government controlled thermostats set to 60 degrees in the winter and 85 in the summer, etc.

Or you can introduce a tax of $0.10/131MJ (131MJ=1 gallon of gas) on all forms of energy produced or imported into the country, and specifically direct that revenue towards energy research. Incentivize conservation, give energy research a $80bn/year budget (compared to $5bn/year today,) and let the people who desire and can afford higher energy consumption subsidize the future lower energy costs for everyone else. Only issue is trying to figure out how to decide what techs the research budget gets spent on.

 

[hammer]

Heh- the only trouble is that the easiest way to pass a tax is to sell it as a way to punish the bad people.

And the bad people are everyone else but me...

:wink:

 

[Glenn]

i quoted you

Damnit! :lol:

 

[drjeff]

Damnit! :lol:

You can help start your therapy sessions this Saturday afternoon/evening on my back deck. I think that multiple doses of PBR would be a appropriate way to start your therapy! :lol: :beer:

 

[mondeo]

20% of the country lives in rural areas. From my experience living in those areas, incomes are considerably lower than Urban environments.

I just think people tend to view things with blinders on. Just because you (general term, not you specifically) can get along fine at $5 gas, doesn't mean a large percentage of people aren't significantly impacted by it.

http://www.urban.org/publications/901284.html

Poverty rates are essentially equal, rural to urban.

 

[o3jeff]

I noticed they went down a penny at my local station, $4.20.

 

[drjeff]

I noticed they went down a penny at my local station, $4.20.

Should be starting to come down in the next few weeks based on the massive drop in futures prices not just yesterday, but the past few days.

Of course now we'll get to hear station operators say that the price isn't coming down quite so fast since there's still "more expensive" gas in their storrage tanks and it will take a few days to get through it, whereas they're uber quick to raise the price when theirs still "cheap" gas in their storrage tanks

 

[deadheadskier]

http://www.urban.org/publications/901284.html

Poverty rates are essentially equal, rural to urban.

sure, but as you mentioned, urban low income people have far better access to public transportation or the ability to walk to work, so high gas prices aren't as big of a problem for them.

 

[thetrailboss]

 

[mondeo]

sure, but as you mentioned, urban low income people have far better access to public transportation or the ability to walk to work, so high gas prices aren't as big of a problem for them.

Right.

But there are a lot of things that need to have some tough choices made. 4% of the population is rural and impoverished. If there's something we can do to bring fusion power on line sooner than 2033, as is currently projected with DEMO, and make it commercially viable, then let's figure out how. ITER's projected cost is $13bn, DEMO's would probably be more, call it $20bn. In one year of a $0.10/gallon equivalent tax on all forms of energy, we buy 4 DEMO plants. More than enough to double the number of scientists and engineers working on the project, buy equipment at risk, etc. to pull up the date by a few years and mature the technology that much faster. We could even take the hit of losing the probably 5% of the energy tax revenue that might come from the 13% of people in poverty and send it back out as a tax credit in some form. An energy tax isn't as disppoportinate anyways, as the majority of rural poverty is in the South, where heating bills aren't as high, and urban populations have lower heating costs due to more efficient buildings (drastically lower surface area per person.) The bulk would be borne by suburban America and businesses, with 2000sq ft houses, 20-40 mile commutes to work, business and vacation travel, data centers, commercial transportation, etc.

Honestly, I want to see riots in the streets. Everbody needs to feel some pain, the sense of entitlement in this country needs to end. Europe's already pretty much crossed that line, we need to get there. If there aren't riots, we're being too nice and not looking enough at the long term.

 

[mondeo]

Way to bring it all together. :smile:

 

[ski_resort_observer]

So, today is an interesting start of the day for the NYMEX. I mostly trade equities but dabble in the commotities arena. The price of crude has dropped to $99 but gasoline(RBOB) is higher. As mentioned in the other gas price threads in the past the price of crude does have a direct relationship to the price at the pump. If your that worried about the price at the pump you need to follow the price of gasoline not the price of crude.

When a barrel of crude arrives at a refinery in the US it can be made into unleaded gas, heating oil, deisel or white gas. This changes seasonally. Right now refineries are doing their seasonal transistion away from heating oil. They all trade separetly on the NYMEX.

A large chunk of the rise in crude in the last few months is the fear factor regarding the Middle East. It's extimated by the experts I listen to be at around 40% of the price. Sometimes the future possibility of a severe problem in the supply chain overrides supply and demand as the main driver of the price.

Remember 2 years ago? When the price at the pump got into the $4 range you start getting demand destruction. When the price hit $4 two years ago many started talking about $5 at the pump. A few of you guys even posted predicting $8/gallon. That will never happen. Crude suppliers, like the Saudis will take steps to reduce the price. They know and you should know that most will reduce their consumption if the price at the pump is too high. In the end demand does have an effect but right now it's the political unrest in the middle east oil patch driving the price so high.