Progress on Deer Valley's New Sister Resort

[thetrailboss]

I believe this is a State of Utah program, not Federal, so "all over the place" should extend only to the borders of the Beehive State.

Yes. As I think I posted in this thread a long time ago that the legislature created this "board" itself.

Utah taxpayers may help finance development at a second Utah ski resort

Utah taxpayers may help build a $35 million lodge at the resort — which would also create a program to support military veterans.

www.sltrib.com

 

[thetrailboss]

Support the troops while brand new ski resorts and lodging gets built. I'll take that abuse. The alternative is VT were they allow next to nothing to get done anymore unless "legal" bribes are made for citizenship. How did that work out?!

If you're talking about EB-5, then yes, there were issues in VT and as a Vermonter I am thoroughly disgusted with how that turned out.

As to Utah, the MIDA has you fooled. If you think giving developers pretty much carte blanche to do whatever they want in an area, pay little or no taxes, get subsidies, and then give vets a "discounted" hotel room that still is in the hundreds of dollars a night is a good deal then go for it. I for one am quite skeptical of this ploy. The vet community does not benefit. The developers do. When Mayflower opens you will see that the deal for vets is not as good as it may seem. There are more legitimate and direct ways to help the vet community then to sell them "discounted" luxury hotel rooms while keeping the majority of the property available for wealthy clients.

 

[Tonyr]

If you're talking about EB-5, then yes, there were issues in VT.

As to Utah, the MIDA has you fooled. If you think giving developers pretty much carte blanche to do whatever they want in an area, pay little or no taxes, get subsidies, and then give vets a "discounted" hotel room that still is in the hundreds of dollars a night is a good deal then go for it. I for one am quite skeptical of this ploy. The vet community does not benefit. The developers do. When Mayflower opens you will see that the deal for vets is not as good as it may seem. There are more legitimate and direct ways to help the vet community then to sell them "discounted" luxury hotel rooms.

I would say the VT / Jay Peak fiasco being an issue is an understatement!

States passing out subsidies for development is very common. This is also no different then when a corporation moves to a new state and gets tons of subsidies / tax breaks to move or when a new sports complex is built. States often times pass out subsidies to get it built in hopes that the project brings in long term revenue and jobs. This happens all the time, sometimes it works out well, sometimes it doesn't.

Staying on mountain walking distance to a lift at Deer Valley is well over 1k per night. If the troops / retired military can have that same experience for a couple hundred per night in a brand new state of the art property I'd call that a pretty good subsidy relatively speaking. I believe they'll also be able to purchase real estate within the development at heavily discounted prices as well. In any event, I guess we'll see shortly how this all plays out...

 

[BenedictGomez]

Support the troops while brand new ski resorts and lodging gets built. I'll take that abuse.

Except the "support the troops" part really isnt what you think it is. Think more akin to the caddy pool hours in Caddyshack.

 

[1dog]

I would say the VT / Jay Peak fiasco being an issue is an understatement!

States passing out subsidies for development is very common. This is also no different then when a corporation moves to a new state and gets tons of subsidies / tax breaks to move or when a new sports complex is built. States often times pass out subsidies to get it built in hopes that the project brings in long term revenue and jobs. This happens all the time, sometimes it works out well, sometimes it doesn't.

Staying on mountain walking distance to a lift at Deer Valley is well over 1k per night. If the troops / retired military can have that same experience for a couple hundred per night in a brand new state of the art property I'd call that a pretty good subsidy relatively speaking. I believe they'll also be able to purchase real estate within the development at heavily discounted prices as well. In any event, I guess we'll see shortly how this all plays out...

If the % of US citizens that ski/ride is 3%- it has been that in recent past - assume its still in that area, then what % of vets ski/ride? Why not have 'help/benefits' for all the vets instead of a choice few?

 

[Tin Woodsman]

I would say the VT / Jay Peak fiasco being an issue is an understatement!

States passing out subsidies for development is very common. This is also no different then when a corporation moves to a new state and gets tons of subsidies / tax breaks to move or when a new sports complex is built. States often times pass out subsidies to get it built in hopes that the project brings in long term revenue and jobs. This happens all the time, sometimes it works out well, sometimes it doesn't.

Staying on mountain walking distance to a lift at Deer Valley is well over 1k per night. If the troops / retired military can have that same experience for a couple hundred per night in a brand new state of the art property I'd call that a pretty good subsidy relatively speaking. I believe they'll also be able to purchase real estate within the development at heavily discounted prices as well. In any event, I guess we'll see shortly how this all plays out...

Except they've already changed the terms to reduce the benefit for vets. There was supposed to be a dedicated lodge/hostel for vets and their families, but that idea got tossed on the way to making this a multi-billion dollar expansion of Deer Valley. So they've doubled or tripled the size of the resort while chopping the benefit for vets that was it's stated justification. To be clear, I have no problems with governments partnering with private enterprise to bring investment and jobs into their jurisdictions, but at least be honest about what you are asking of the taxpayer. This has been a dishonest ruse since the beginning.

 

[thetrailboss]

Except they've already changed the terms to reduce the benefit for vets. There was supposed to be a dedicated lodge/hostel for vets and their families, but that idea got tossed on the way to making this a multi-billion dollar expansion of Deer Valley. So they've doubled or tripled the size of the resort while chopping the benefit for vets that was it's stated justification. To be clear, I have no problems with governments partnering with private enterprise to bring investment and jobs into their jurisdictions, but at least be honest about what you are asking of the taxpayer. This has been a dishonest ruse since the beginning.

This.

 

[Tonyr]

Except they've already changed the terms to reduce the benefit for vets. There was supposed to be a dedicated lodge/hostel for vets and their families, but that idea got tossed on the way to making this a multi-billion dollar expansion of Deer Valley. So they've doubled or tripled the size of the resort while chopping the benefit for vets that was it's stated justification. To be clear, I have no problems with governments partnering with private enterprise to bring investment and jobs into their jurisdictions, but at least be honest about what you are asking of the taxpayer. This has been a dishonest ruse since the beginning.

This is the most recent update I found. The Air Force is getting 1% of all tax revenues generated by this project. Military and retired members are geting access to 100 rooms in the newly built Grand Hyatt resort during non peak times at $112 to $155 per night depending on rank. Overall, this still seems pretty generous to me and the Air Force signed off on it....

Mayflower developers weigh revenue, military discount at primary hotel

A hotel for active and former military members is at the heart of the Mayflower Mountain Resort development. As developers finalize the management of that hotel, discounts for military visitors is a sticking point.

www.google.com

 

[thetrailboss]

This is the most recent update I found. The Air Force is getting 1% of all tax revenues generated by this project. Military and retired members are geting access to 100 rooms in the newly built Grand Hyatt resort during non peak times at $112 to $155 per night depending on rank. Overall, this still seems pretty generous to me and the Air Force signed off on it....

Mayflower developers weigh revenue, military discount at primary hotel

A hotel for active and former military members is at the heart of the Mayflower Mountain Resort development. As developers finalize the management of that hotel, discounts for military visitors is a sticking point.

www.google.com

The devil is in the details.

First, for context, the issue goes back almost 30 years. Snowbasin, which was set to host the 2002 Olympics, proposed a massive expansion. In part of their proposed expansion was Hill Air Force Base's recreation cabin on a small piece of land. To compensate them, the Utah Legislature stepped in and created the Military Installation Development Authority to create an alternative.

Now, the simple solution would have been to just buy another piece of land and build a new cabin. But the powers-to-be would not let a crisis go to waste. They had to make millions of dollars and cut out local land use regulations and other "red tape" that developers hate. So this piece of land, near Deer Valley, was designated as a new "moral welfare recreation facility", whatever the hell that means. Even then, if this REALLY was about the military and vets, then this would be exclusively for them, but it is not.

The article you cite makes that abundantly clear. And, in two plus years of this thread, you're the only one to defend this project. First, the only aspect of the project that even will be aimed at the military is 100 rooms of the hotel (and only the hotel):

At the ski resort under construction in Wasatch County near Deer Valley, the Moral Welfare Recreation Facility and Conference Center is a $420 million, 600,000-square-foot, 13-story, 387-room hotel.

When it opens, 100 rooms there will be reserved for military members and retirees — a major reason for Utah’s involvement in the project.

That 1% revenue share? That only applies to the hotel itself and not the tens, if not hundreds of millions of business and real estate around it:

The Air Force will also receive 1% of revenues from a special tax on the hotel's income.

In fact, members of the MIDA expressed much concern about the fact that most of this project has absolutely nothing to do with the honorable service men and women of Hill Air Force Base. But again, they could not let an opportunity to enrich others in the process:

MIDA Vice Chair Jerry Stevenson said in a board meeting Thursday that’s still the reason for the multi-billion-dollar development, which will also build hotels, houses, condos and commercial buildings not tied to the military.

“We started this to come up with a recreation facility that would take care of the needs of our military,” Stevenson said. “That was the basic premise everything we did here has been billed on, and we built everything else around that.”

And that discount? It is NOT for a $112-155 room for a night. It is a discount in the amount of at least $112 a night up to $155 a night, and not in peak season. They could not even bring themselves to make the discount available when folks would use it.

The military discounts will correspond with rank, beginning at $112 a night and increasing to $155 for highest-ranking visitors.

Two clauses in the contract presented at Thursday’s MIDA board meeting exclude those discounts during peak ski season and during any Olympics in Utah. It defined peak occupancy periods as two weeks that include Christmas and New Year’s, the Sundance Film Festival, and the weekends of Presidents Day and Martin Luther King Day.

During those times, discounts for military members will be 20% to 30% of public rates, instead of fixed amounts.

And yes, the MIDA itself was uncomfortable with the low discount and blackouts:

That gave pause to some board members, who pointed out that cuts down on the chances for military travelers to take advantage of the full discount. MIDA Executive Director Paul Morris said the military agencies involved might agree to that, since it will mean more money goes to the Air Force.

“People are paying these very, very high prices,” Morris said. “The Air Force is always getting their 1% — there's no blackout on that. So, it was a balance of you want the discount of rooms, but they also were very interested in that 1% being maximized. And so I think this was the balance that was struck.”

Now let me put into context how bad that discount is. Anyone who has been to Park City knows that rooms are expensive. A comparable room at the Montage starts at over $2,000.00 and goes up to $12,000.00 per night. Perhaps the Stein is more your cup of tea. Rooms there start at $943 and go up to $3,300.00. Then there is St. Regis, which is just up the mountain from this development with rooms starting at $1,999 and going up. So they are really breaking the bank and showing those Vets how valued they are with a measly $112-$155 night discount. It's downright insulting.

Last, the Air Force did not approve this. This whole plan was the MIDA. The article makes it clear that the MIDA has the final say, not the Air Force. Hell, I don't even know how one would "donate" to the Air Force as it is a federal entity. I donated to the Air Force in April by paying taxes. The MIDA has the final say and conditioned it on the Air Force agreeing to the discounts:

The state board overseeing development is the Military Installation Development Authority, or MIDA. It has final say on matters such as a contract for how the hotel manages discounted rooms, which may vary during peak season.

[....]

The board voted to approve the discounts and changes for peak season on the condition that the Air Force signs off.

But you're right, they clearly love those who bravely serve so how dare I actually read the fine print.

If I were in uniform, that free cabin on a remote piece of land in Utah sounds like a better deal to me than this scam. But yeah, America, fuck yeah!

 

[Tonyr]

The devil is in the details.

First, for context, the issue goes back almost 30 years. Snowbasin, which was set to host the 2002 Olympics, proposed a massive expansion. In part of their proposed expansion was Hill Air Force Base's recreation cabin on a small piece of land. To compensate them, the Utah Legislature stepped in and created the Military Installation Development Authority to create an alternative.

Now, the simple solution would have been to just buy another piece of land and build a new cabin. But the powers-to-be would not let a crisis go to waste. They had to make millions of dollars and cut out local land use regulations and other "red tape" that developers hate. So this piece of land, near Deer Valley, was designated as a new "moral welfare recreation facility", whatever the hell that means. Even then, if this REALLY was about the military and vets, then this would be exclusively for them, but it is not.

The article you cite makes that abundantly clear. And, in two plus years of this thread, you're the only one to defend this project. First, the only aspect of the project that even will be aimed at the military is 100 rooms of the hotel (and only the hotel):



That 1% revenue share? That only applies to the hotel itself and not the tens, if not hundreds of millions of business and real estate around it:



In fact, members of the MIDA expressed much concern about the fact that most of this project has absolutely nothing to do with the honorable service men and women of Hill Air Force Base. But again, they could not let an opportunity to enrich others in the process:



And that discount? It is NOT for a $112-155 room for a night. It is a discount in the amount of at least $112 a night up to $155 a night, and not in peak season. They could not even bring themselves to make the discount available when folks would use it.



And yes, the MIDA itself was uncomfortable with the low discount and blackouts:



Now let me put into context how bad that discount is. Anyone who has been to Park City knows that rooms are expensive. A comparable room at the Montage starts at over $2,000.00 and goes up to $12,000.00 per night. Perhaps the Stein is more your cup of tea. Rooms there start at $943 and go up to $3,300.00. Then there is St. Regis, which is just up the mountain from this development with rooms starting at $1,999 and going up. So they are really breaking the bank and showing those Vets how valued they are with a measly $112-$155 night discount. It's downright insulting.

Last, the Air Force did not approve this. This whole plan was the MIDA. The article makes it clear that the MIDA has the final say, not the Air Force. Hell, I don't even know how one would "donate" to the Air Force as it is a federal entity. I donated to the Air Force in April by paying taxes. The MIDA has the final say and conditioned it on the Air Force agreeing to the discounts:



But you're right, they clearly love those who bravely serve so how dare I actually read the fine print.

If I were in uniform, that free cabin on a remote piece of land in Utah sounds like a better deal to me than this scam. But yeah, America, fuck yeah!

Lots of good analysis there. I like the fact that a new ski resort is being built while the military gets some benefits but that is just me.

A 1% sales tax on the annual revenue even on the hotel could be a nice windfall for the Air Force each year and they put zero money up for this revenue stream. By 2030 MIDA is forecasting a 6.6 billion ROI and over 5k new jobs. Even if it makes half those numbers the project is a homerun. Versus VT, the state you left, did with the whole Jay Peak and Burke fiasco. This UT project is night and day from the VT scam that played out which makes it a little humorous to read all the demonizing comments directed at it.

The Grand Hyatt will probably be very expensive I'd guess. The Hyatt Centric in the Canyons goes for 1k a night during ski season and this property appears like it will be much nicer. If its in fact a $112 to $155 discount per night on the prevailing rate then that's going to be a crap deal for the military members. I wouldn't even consider it a benefit. If it's actually $112 to $155 per night then it's fantastic opportunity. I guess we'll see how it all works out at this point. The project is happening whether we like it or not.

 

[Tonyr]

It's appears the way I interpreted the article I posted was correct. The fixed room rate will be $112 to $155 per night for military members outside of peak times which in that case is only a 20% to 30% discount to the prevailing rate. Outside of peak times, this is going to be fantastic deal for service members if true....

 

[thetrailboss]

It's appears the way I interpreted the article I posted was correct. The fixed room rate will be $112 to $155 per night for military members outside of peak times which in that case is only a 20% to 30% discount to the prevailing rate. Outside of peak times, this is going to be fantastic deal for service members if true....
View attachment 60032

No, read it again. The amount of the total discount is $112 for lowest rank and $155 for highest rank.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

No, read it again. The amount of the total discount is $112 for lowest rank and $155 for highest rank.

To be fair, it wouldn't make sense if the discount for non-peak periods was $112-155 and then for peak periods was 20-30% off public rates. As we all agree, those rooms are likely to go for $1-2K/night and upwards during peak times, so that would actually be a much more substantial benefit if it were the case.

Regardless, the backstory of the project is even worse than TB is describing. To wit:

• The entire planning process was ripped out of Wasatch County's hands due to the power vested in MIDA to override local planning and approval requirements. While we often see those powers used for bad (as with those NIMBY kooks at the Park City Town Council), Wasatch County has always been accommodating for development. So now this will be done with no local oversight.
• The financing is the biggest sham in this whole things. MIDA, as a govt entity, is issuing tax-free bonds and handing the proceeds to Extell. So Extell immediately benefits from a govt subsidy in the form of lower interest rates than it would have been able to receive on the open market. In addition, the primary payback mechanism for these bonds is called tax increment financing. Basically, the taxes on the economic activity/properties around Mayflower's base are supposed to pay back the bonds while also funding local schools. Sure Jan. Utah taxpayers could ultimately be on the hook for this.

Look - I'm a red-blooded capitalist, but this is yet another case of privatizing potential gains and socializing potential losses that is more akin to crony-capitalism than a free market investment.

 

[BenedictGomez]

The fixed room rate will be $112 to $155 per night for military members outside of peak times which in that case is only a 20% to 30% discount to the prevailing rate. Outside of peak times, this is going to be fantastic deal for service members if true....

So it's going to be a "fantastic deal" for people who want to hike the area in summer or ski WROD in December? Got it.

FYI, I've stayed at Canyons for $150/night off-peak and summer in places that would be like $500 or $600 during peak. It's really not hard, there's a metric poop-ton of lodging in the Park City area, and FYI parte deux, Mayflower really isnt going to be a desirable place to stay versus Park City. So unless this place is going to be incredibly nice, it's unclear to me why I'd want to spend my $150/night to stay there off peak as a tourist versus either in downtown Park City or over at Canyons. It's not like this is going to be a bad deal at all if you're correct on the pricing, but I dont see it as being a great deal either given the time periods allowed & the other choices in the area. It's somewhat "meh" actually. My opinion would be different if they gave these military peeps $150 rooms Christmas through President's Week - but they're not.

 

[BenedictGomez]

this is yet another case of privatizing potential gains and socializing potential losses that is more akin to crony-capitalism than a free market investment.

And they get some sort of big tax advantage for like FORTY YEARS too, so the Wasatch County taxpayers eat that as well versus if this incredibly valuable land had been developed in any other many ofther than by mafia (aka government) means.

 

[Tonyr]

And they get some sort of big tax advantage for like FORTY YEARS too, so the Wasatch County taxpayers eat that as well versus if this incredibly valuable land had been developed in any other many ofther than by mafia (aka government) means.

Hey, you can always just come back to the NYC metro area. We definitely know how to spend taxpayer money wisely here!

 

[Tonyr]

No, read it again. The amount of the total discount is $112 for lowest rank and $155 for highest rank.

This last part of that paragraph from the article indicates a fixed rate on non-peak times....

Again, not 100% clear but I guess we'll see soon enough.

 

[thetrailboss]

Yeah, after re-reading this like 10 times I can see how it would be rooms for $112-155. What confused me was the rank part, but those of a higher rank are making more money, so they would pay slightly more.

I still think that there is a lot of extraneous B.S. going on here though. Again, if the real purpose was to replace the Snowbasin cabin, then the logical response would be a similar cabin somewhere else. Not a massive for-profit development in one of the worst skiable areas in the Wasatch that is 99% NOT for the servicemen and women.

Anyone who has skied Deer Valley knows that this side of the resort does not get snow and, though there are great views of Jordanelle and the Uintas, is not an area that skiers have been begging to see developed.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I still think that there is a lot of extraneous B.S. going on here though. Again, if the real purpose was to replace the Snowbasin cabin, then the logical response would be a similar cabin somewhere else. Not a massive for-profit development in one of the worst skiable areas in the Wasatch that is 99% NOT for the servicemen and women.

I dont understand how there werent lawsuits that could have successfully shut this down given it was so ridiculous on face value. I dont know if there's a similar prima facie phrase for translating "obvious bullshit" into Latin under the law, but there should be.

Like, "Your Honor, we hold that this is clearly Obvious Bullshit" - but stated in Latin.

 

[Tonyr]

Yeah, after re-reading this like 10 times I can see how it would be rooms for $112-155. What confused me was the rank part, but those of a higher rank are making more money, so they would pay slightly more.

I still think that there is a lot of extraneous B.S. going on here though. Again, if the real purpose was to replace the Snowbasin cabin, then the logical response would be a similar cabin somewhere else. Not a massive for-profit development in one of the worst skiable areas in the Wasatch that is 99% NOT for the servicemen and women.

Anyone who has skied Deer Valley knows that this side of the resort does not get snow and, though there are great views of Jordanelle and the Uintas, is not an area that skiers have been begging to see developed.

Your right, the bottom parts of the resort will have to rely on alot of man-made snow. The section circled in red has the best potential for good skiing....